2023 Spring Training

[Mays-Fan]

Not yet. He needs a few more good years to get to that Top 5. He'd still need to get past Ron Santo, Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell and maybe Home Run Baker, Ken Boyer, Sal Bando and Darrell Evans to make the conversation. I think he is two good seasons (like his 2014 or 2021 seasons) from surpassing the Baker/Boyer/Bando/Evans group and three good seasons from surpassing Santo/Nettles/Bell. Two really good seasons (like his 2019 or 2022 seasons) would definitely push him into Top 5 consideration.

What? No Pie Traynor????

 

[LHG]

What? No Pie Traynor????

Well, with a name like that, he must certainly be considered!

 

[calsnowskier]

Not yet. He needs a few more good years to get to that Top 5. He'd still need to get past Ron Santo, Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell and maybe Home Run Baker, Ken Boyer, Sal Bando and Darrell Evans to make the conversation. I think he is two good seasons (like his 2014 or 2021 seasons) from surpassing the Baker/Boyer/Bando/Evans group and three good seasons from surpassing Santo/Nettles/Bell. Two really good seasons (like his 2019 or 2022 seasons) would definitely push him into Top 5 consideration.

Not sure I agree with your assessment, but well thought out, regardless. I would need to do some side by side comparisons to offer a valid argument against, though. Maybe tonight I will take a look.

 

[LHG]

Not sure I agree with your assessment, but well thought out, regardless. I would need to do some side by side comparisons to offer a valid argument against, though. Maybe tonight I will take a look.

I was looking at numbers and, on the surface, some of these guys don't seem to compare to Arenado. But you have to also take into consideration the era that they played.
John Baker was nicknamed Home Run for a reason. He hit more than most did during his prime. He lead the AL in home runs from 1911 to 1914 and only hit 42 total in that 4 year stretch. For contrast, Arenado hit 41 in 2016 alone and lead the NL that year.
Sal Bando is another example of comparing a player from a different ara. He was a top 5 AL MVP candidate in his prime years with the A's and was a down ballot candidate another 4 years. His career flamed out a bit early so that is why I think another year or two of good production from Arenado would push him past that tier of 3rd basemen.
Arenado is certainly on the trajectory to be in the Top 5 (even Top 2) conversation but he has to play out the rest of his career to actually be considered, IMHO.

 

[calsnowskier]

I was looking at numbers and, on the surface, some of these guys don't seem to compare to Arenado. But you have to also take into consideration the era that they played.
John Baker was nicknamed Home Run for a reason. He hit more than most did during his prime. He lead the AL in home runs from 1911 to 1914 and only hit 42 total in that 4 year stretch. For contrast, Arenado hit 41 in 2016 alone and lead the NL that year.
Sal Bando is another example of comparing a player from a different ara. He was a top 5 AL MVP candidate in his prime years with the A's and was a down ballot candidate another 4 years. His career flamed out a bit early so that is why I think another year or two of good production from Arenado would push him past that tier of 3rd basemen.
Arenado is certainly on the trajectory to be in the Top 5 (even Top 2) conversation but he has to play out the rest of his career to actually be considered, IMHO.

While far from perfect (it is an advanced metric, so lots of opinion and park factors are mixed in), I like to look at OPS+ when comparing players of different eras. And even then, not necessarily looking at the exact values, but placing them into buckets (he had an OPS+ between 100 and 109 x times; between 110 and 120 y times; etc etc…

 

[tzill]

ARod played a lot of games at shortstop (1272 games versus 1194 at 3rd) so I don't consider him for this purpose. Even with Robinson and Rolen's gloves, I don't think either did enough to be considered 2nd best. Top 5? Definitely possibilities. I would loosely put this list as the Top 5 3rd basemen of all time:
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Eddie Mathews
3. Adrian Beltre
4. George Brett
5. Chipper Jones
But Boggs, Robinson and Rolen could all be interchangeable at the 4/5 spots.

No love for Ron Santo, Harmon Killebrew or Paul Molitor?

 

[LHG]

While far from perfect (it is an advanced metric, so lots of opinion and park factors are mixed in), I like to look at OPS+ when comparing players of different eras. And even then, not necessarily looking at the exact values, but placing them into buckets (he had an OPS+ between 100 and 109 x times; between 110 and 120 y times; etc etc…

That is a good comparison. As imperfect as it is, I do lean a bit on WAR to compare (typically, BBRef WAR). For example, Baker's career WAR is 62.8, Bando's career WAR is 61.5 and Arenado currently sits at 52.2.

 

[LHG]

No love for Ron Santo, Harmon Killebrew or Paul Molitor?

I mentioned Santo (think he's not Top 5, though). Molitor played much more time at DH than 3rd base. I won't consider those types of players, even if third base was where they played the most when they took a defensive position. Killebrew played almost 200 more games at 1st base then 3rd base. For my consideration, they have to have spent most of their career at 3rd base, at least more than any other position (including DH). They may have been very good when they played at 3rd base but having to be moved knocks them down a few notches, IMHO.

 

[calsnowskier]

That is a good comparison. As imperfect as it is, I do lean a bit on WAR to compare (typically, BBRef WAR). For example, Baker's career WAR is 62.8, Bando's career WAR is 61.5 and Arenado currently sits at 52.2.

I also like to look at WAR7 rather than career WAR. This gives a better showing of a players real contribution. I like to point to Rickey as the reason for this. He played well past his sell-by date, so I don’t want his rate stats to suffer because he loved the game enough that he was going to play as long as there was a team stupid enough to give him a jersey.

 

[Mays-Fan]

ARod played a lot of games at shortstop (1272 games versus 1194 at 3rd) so I don't consider him for this purpose. Even with Robinson and Rolen's gloves, I don't think either did enough to be considered 2nd best. Top 5? Definitely possibilities. I would loosely put this list as the Top 5 3rd basemen of all time:
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Eddie Mathews
3. Adrian Beltre
4. George Brett
5. Chipper Jones
But Boggs, Robinson and Rolen could all be interchangeable at the 4/5 spots.

Honorable mention:

and of course:

 

[calsnowskier]

Honorable mention:

but he is a catcher. Before the majors, he hadn’t played 3B for more than a handful of innings since his days in A-…

Honorable mention:

Of course. Good addition.

 

[Mays-Fan]

but he is a catcher.

But let's not forget:

 

[LHG]

Honorable mention:

and of course:

Buster Posey - Greatest Third Baseman Who Never Was
Pablo Sandoval - Greatest Third Baseman Who Snapped His Belt

 

[LHG]

It looks like only two Giants who are set to make the Opening Day roster will play in the WBC - Camilo Doval and Joc Pederson.

There are two minor leaguers on WBC rosters as well - Jonathan Bermudez and Joey Marciano.

The Rangers (3) is the only organization with fewer players represented in the WBC.

 

[Sandisfan]

It looks like only two Giants who are set to make the Opening Day roster will play in the WBC - Camilo Doval and Joc Pederson.

There are two minor leaguers on WBC rosters as well - Jonathan Bermudez and Joey Marciano.

The Rangers (3) is the only organization with fewer players represented in the WBC.

Indeed... The Giants roster is filled with many serviceable players not Stars.

 

[LHG]

It looks like only two Giants who are set to make the Opening Day roster will play in the WBC - Camilo Doval and Joc Pederson.

There are two minor leaguers on WBC rosters as well - Jonathan Bermudez and Joey Marciano.

The Rangers (3) is the only organization with fewer players represented in the WBC.

I don't think it can be overstated that making a WBC roster is a huge deal for Marciano, considering where he was about 3 years ago. Kudos to him.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Indeed... The Giants roster is filled with many serviceable players not Stars.

You mean like 2010-12-14?

 

[calsnowskier]

You mean like 2010-12-14?

those teams had a manager…

This team has a yogi.

 

[Sandisfan]

You mean like 2010-12-14?

I raise you a Posey (MVP or near so) and Bum!

 

[Mays-Fan]

I raise you a Posey (MVP or near so) and Bum!

I may call you here. While Posey was an excellent hitter for a catcher, his highest HRs for a year was only 24 (he only exceeded 20 HRs twice), and he only had one 100 RBI season. He was not a monster hitter. A very good situational hitter, yes.

Bum was also not a super-dominant pitcher until we hit the playoffs, then he was a monster. His highest Cy Young rank was 4th, which he did twice.

So, yes, we had some very good players in our dynasty years. But I would argue that our success was more because of balance, and a lack of weaknesses, and we weren't carried by superstars to make the playoffs. And don't forget FYWW.