2018-2019 NBA Regular Season Thread

[Sir Robin Of Camelot]

Missed this one. any cliff notes?

This probably summarizes his thoughts.

 

[tlance]

And you think a team like Love's Minnesota team was the "right environment"?

I thought this deserved its own post.

So I help coach high school basketball as a hobby. Defintely not as into it as I used to be.

But, I coached at a powerhouse private school for 7 seasons from 2006 to 2014. We had dozens of college coaches from all levels coming through our gym to recruit players on a weekly basis. Over that time, I made quite a few connections in the basketball community.

The father of one of our players was a high level staffer with the Wolves during the Kevin Love era. Not going to say his name because the stories he told were not meant for public consumption. But he told me that Love was an awful teammate. The year he got hurt and missed most of the season, he would berate teammates behind the scenes whenever he got the opportunity. Calling his teammates "trash", saying they were "nothing without him". Things like that. On a daily basis.

While I am sure the team culture, and Love's desire to leave Minnesota had something to do with his attitude, Love sure didn't make things better from a leadership standpoint. It wasn't until they brought in vets like Kevin Martin, and until Rubio started to gain some traction in the locker room that they actually won a few games.

So while Love was certainly the best player on that 40 win team, he was no more their leader than Anthony Davis is leading the Pelicans team today.

 

[dtgold88]

This probably summarizes his thoughts.

I did see that. was thinking something must be up as even in losses he'll usually hug the other teams best player.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

This is just old. And you're just being stubborn. I've repeatedly said I'd rather have Klay over Love. Why does that bother you so much?

What do you not understand that I'm only comparing Klay & Love. Not Klay & AD. Not Klay & Embiid. And not Klay & anyone else.

My question is this: Why in the hell would any one in their right mind prefer Love over Klay? I would think wanting Klay over Love is a no brainer?

 

[WiggyRuss]

This probably summarizes his thoughts.

LEBron does not seem like he is having much fun...lol....

but hey

Space Jam 2!!!

 

[dtgold88]

I thought this deserved its own post.

So I help coach high school basketball as a hobby. Defintely not as into it as I used to be.

But, I coached at a powerhouse private school for 7 seasons from 2006 to 2014. We had dozens of college coaches from all levels coming through our gym to recruit players on a weekly basis. Over that time, I made quite a few connections in the basketball community.

The father of one of our players was a high level staffer with the Wolves during the Kevin Love era. Not going to say his name because the stories he told were not meant for public consumption. But he told me that Love was an awful teammate. The year he got hurt and missed most of the season, he would berate teammates behind the scenes whenever he got the opportunity. Calling his teammates "trash", saying they were "nothing without him". Things like that. On a daily basis.

While I am sure the team culture, and Love's desire to leave Minnesota had something to do with his attitude, Love sure didn't make things better from a leadership standpoint. It wasn't until they brought in vets like Kevin Martin, and until Rubio started to gain some traction in the locker room that they actually won a few games.

So while Love was certainly the best player on that 40 win team, he was no more their leader than Anthony Davis is leading the Pelicans team today.

Cannot dispute this, but he seems like an entirely different person on this Cavs team that has even less talent than those Wolves teams.

 

[dtgold88]

My question is this: Why in the hell would any one in their right mind prefer Love over Klay? I would think wanting Klay over Love is a no brainer?

Because 20-10 guys who can also shoot 3s are rare in the NBA? Because Love can create his own shot down low and also gets to the FT line? Usually, between 6-9 times when not playing with another ball dominant player (or 2). Even with Lebron/Kyrie still close to 5. Klay lucky to get there 3 times.

could an argument be made for Klay? sure, but to say a no-brainer for Klay is way off base.

 

[Sir Robin Of Camelot]

I did see that. was thinking something must be up as even in losses he'll usually hug the other teams best player.

He’s learning what most fans west of The Mississippi have known for well over over a decade. The Western Conference of the NBA ain’t three good teams and the Sisters of the Poor. Shit’s real over here.

 

[tlance]

I can somewhat agree, but you get offense is as important as defense, right, and is more easily measured? The narrative Love is an awful defender is a guess at best. He's certainly not good and average would be pushing it.

Isn't close to top 15-20 when overall game considered? so what are you thinking.....50th best or worse? Guy was an all star only a year ago.

I wouldn't go that far, because if you have a 1 way player, offense is more valuable than defense. That is for certain.

I would say Love is probably somewhere between 35 and 40, IMO in terms of overall best players. Klay is comfortably inside the top 20 overall.

And 2 things about all star status-

1) Love might still be a top 12-15 overall player in the EAST. But there are a lot players in the West that can't sniff the all star team who would be shoe ins if they played on an East squad. Tobias Harris, Luka Doncic, Rudy Gobert, Donovan Mitchell, etc...

2) all star recognitions are almost always more about what you do offensively. Earning an all star bid has always been more about offensive numbers with team success as a tie breaker of sorts.

If Love is healthy next year, he has a really good shot to make the allstar team again. But that doesn't mean he is a top 25 player. Top 25 offensive player? Yeah. I am sure he is that.

 

[flyerhawk]

Because 20-10 guys who can also shoot 3s are rare in the NBA? Because Love can create his own shot down low and also gets to the FT line? Usually, between 6-9 times when not playing with another ball dominant player (or 2). Even with Lebron/Kyrie still close to 5. Klay lucky to get there 3 times.

could an argument be made for Klay? sure, but to say a no-brainer for Klay is way off base.

Love provides a good amount of value on the offensive side. At least when he is healthy.

On the defensive side, he's a liability. He provides no rim protection and very little defense in space. He collected rebounds mostly because he is around the rim a lot and 6'11".

Klay Thompson, otoh, is a top flight defender.

Love is the kinda guy you want when you want to take your 30 win team to be a 45 win team. Klay is the sort of guy that you want to take you from a 50 win team to title contender.

 

[tlance]

Cannot dispute this, but he seems like an entirely different person on this Cavs team that has even less talent than those Wolves teams.

Totally agree with that. And I think there are a lot of factors there.

 

[dtgold88]

I wouldn't go that far, because if you have a 1 way player, offense is more valuable than defense. That is for certain.

I would say Love is probably somewhere between 35 and 40, IMO in terms of overall best players. Klay is comfortably inside the top 20 overall.

And 2 things about all star status-

1) Love might still be a top 12-15 overall player in the EAST. But there are a lot players in the West that can't sniff the all star team who would be shoe ins if they played on an East squad. Tobias Harris, Luka Doncic, Rudy Gobert, Donovan Mitchell, etc...

2) all star recognitions are almost always more about what you do offensively. Earning an all star bid has always been more about offensive numbers with team success as a tie breaker of sorts.

If Love is healthy next year, he has a really good shot to make the allstar team again. But that doesn't mean he is a top 25 player. Top 25 offensive player? Yeah. I am sure he is that.

All fair points but think you underestimate him. again, 20-10 guys who can shoot don't grow on trees. I think if he was healty this year he'd have been close to 22 and 12 (but glad the cavs sat him). Even in limited time (20-28 minutes) the cavs have won 4 of 6 with him back. Not against any good teams, but teams they were losing to without him on the floor.

Sure, it matters who he plays with, but a guy like him can spread the floor for guys who like to get to the paint (I'm sure Lebron and Kyrie appreciated this.....as will Sexton). Gobert goes outside and the guy who is supposed to defend him (or that area) is just going to look at him and hope he gets the ball.

And FTR defensive rebounds is considered defense and Love is one of the best.

 

[dtgold88]

Love provides a good amount of value on the offensive side. At least when he is healthy.

On the defensive side, he's a liability. He provides no rim protection and very little defense in space. He collected rebounds mostly because he is around the rim a lot and 6'11".

Klay Thompson, otoh, is a top flight defender.

Love is the kinda guy you want when you want to take your 30 win team to be a 45 win team. Klay is the sort of guy that you want to take you from a 50 win team to title contender.

Love also played on 4 title contenders. A lot of guys who are his height or taller who are around the rim even more than he is (remember, he can even come outside and shoot) who don't rebound more than he does.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Cannot dispute this, but he seems like an entirely different person on this Cavs team that has even less talent than those Wolves teams.

of course you cannot dispute some horseshit from some kid teaching 16 year olds almost a decade ago that is 3rd hand hearsay.

Love has shown he has been nothing but a great teammate with the Cavs. The guy sacrificed more than anyone, and over and over his teammates have said what he means to the team.

Minnesota had the record for North American Sports for least playoff appearances in a row- a record that started before Love got there and didnt end to years after he left. It was, if not THE most incompetent franchise in north american pro sports, certainly one of the top 5.

Its the same team that decided to save its "designated player extension" for Rubio instead of Love, and only offered Love 3 years when Love would have signed for 5.

Love's first year in Minne was 08-09. AS is typical with must young players, he really came into his own in his 3rd year- the 2010-2011 season when he went for 20-15-3 a night.

The guys that got the most starts on that team: Wesley Johnson (66) , Michael Beasley (73) , Luke Ridnour (66), Darko Milocic (69)

think of that fucking starting line up...lol

PG- Luke Ridnour
SG- Wesley Johnson
SF- Michael Beasley
PF- Love
C- Darko

I mean holy shit is that bad. That is WAY worse than the freaking Cavs if you ask me. The next year might even be worse --- guys that got starts Pekovic (35), Ridnour 53, Rubio 31 (as a rook that shot a Ball-like 35% from the floor), Wesley Jonhson with another 64 starts, Daroko with 23, Martell Webster with 26.

SOO SOOO SOOO BAD. Hes teammates were GARBAGE.

the year after that? Love had his year that was lost because of injury where he only played 18 games

his last year in Minne? an Ancient Kevin Martin (that he played with for ONE YEAR) started 68 games, Pekovic started 54, the GREAT COREY BREWER started 81 games, Ricky Rubio started 82 games (has ricky rubio ever been a top half of the NBA point guard? maybe maybe not- certainly never near top 10),

so you have
PG- Rubio
SG- Brewer
SF- Martin
PF- Love
C- Pekovic

jusst garbage. Straight trashola. Minnesota was the most incompetent franchise in north american sports, arguably, and in the 4 years Love gave them a shot the best guys they gave him were a young Rubio, Luke Ridnour, 1 year of Kevin Martin, Pekovic, Brewer, Wesley Johnson, Darko.

Despite all of that- Love wanted to be loyal and take a 5 year deal but they instead decided they wanted to save it for Rubio...lol.....just unreal

 

[dtgold88]

He’s learning what most fans west of The Mississippi have known for well over over a decade. The Western Conference of the NBA ain’t three good teams and the Sisters of the Poor. Shit’s real over here.

I suspect this year the West is one good team and sisters of the poor when it comes to a shot at winning the conference. and there are 5 teams in the east as good as the 4 teams in the West next in line below GS.

 

[flyerhawk]

All fair points but think you underestimate him. again, 20-10 guys who can shoot don't grow on trees. I think if he was healty this year he'd have been close to 22 and 12 (but glad the cavs sat him). Even in limited time (20-28 minutes) the cavs have won 4 of 6 with him back. Not against any good teams, but teams they were losing to without him on the floor.

Sure, it matters who he plays with, but a guy like him can spread the floor for guys who like to get to the paint (I'm sure Lebron and Kyrie appreciated this.....as will Sexton). Gobert goes outside and the guy who is supposed to defend him (or that area) is just going to look at him and hope he gets the ball.

And FTR defensive rebounds is considered defense and Love is one of the best.

But his lack of presence as a defensive stopper is a big reason why the Cavs are so sieve-like on defense.

His only year with the Cavs where he had a positive defensive impact(as measured by opposing scoring in the paint) was 2014.

 

[WiggyRuss]

All fair points but think you underestimate him. again, 20-10 guys who can shoot don't grow on trees. I think if he was healty this year he'd have been close to 22 and 12 (but glad the cavs sat him). Even in limited time (20-28 minutes) the cavs have won 4 of 6 with him back. Not against any good teams, but teams they were losing to without him on the floor.

Sure, it matters who he plays with, but a guy like him can spread the floor for guys who like to get to the paint (I'm sure Lebron and Kyrie appreciated this.....as will Sexton). Gobert goes outside and the guy who is supposed to defend him (or that area) is just going to look at him and hope he gets the ball.

And FTR defensive rebounds is considered defense and Love is one of the best.

20-10 guys that can shoot, and pass extremely well, especially. Especially ones that are unselfish

also, one of the biggest components of the defensive metrics that NBA teams use are defensive rebounding stats where Love is one of the very best in the NBA- so his defensive rating in a lot of those stats is usually much better than people expect. Allowing your guy to get offensive boards kills your team almost more than anything.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

For all the flack Ingram has caught, he has been damn good lately while Kuzma has fallen off a bit.

Ingram still just 21 years old. He isn't Kevin Durant, but he absolutely looks like he could be a future star the he has been playing. Starting to figure it out.

It looks like to me that Ingram has bulked up more and is looking bigger and stronger. I think that is a critical area he has to get in order to bang around in there. In the past he was getting hammered like a rag doll. I like Ingram and Kuzma right now in the way they are playing, but I don't think it is reasonable to expect the Lakers to make the playoffs this year. I think that ship has sailed away. If they win 50% which is going to be slightly better than what they have been doing, that would be 40 wins and 40 losses. And that is not going to get into them into the playoffs. I think expecting the Lakers to win a minimum of 15 wins out of 20 is unrealistic. Just no going to happen

 

[flyerhawk]

Love also played on 4 title contenders. A lot of guys who are his height or taller who are around the rim even more than he is (remember, he can even come outside and shoot) who don't rebound more than he does.

Well ok but Klay has won 3 titles and is likely to win his 4th this year.

 

[tlance]

All fair points but think you underestimate him. again, 20-10 guys who can shoot don't grow on trees. I think if he was healty this year he'd have been close to 22 and 12 (but glad the cavs sat him). Even in limited time (20-28 minutes) the cavs have won 4 of 6 with him back. Not against any good teams, but teams they were losing to without him on the floor.

Sure, it matters who he plays with, but a guy like him can spread the floor for guys who like to get to the paint (I'm sure Lebron and Kyrie appreciated this.....as will Sexton). Gobert goes outside and the guy who is supposed to defend him (or that area) is just going to look at him and hope he gets the ball.

And FTR defensive rebounds is considered defense and Love is one of the best.

I agree with all of that.

But I will say this again:

3 things matter most for big defenders in the current NBA, and probably in this order too, although order for 2 and 3 are debateable:

1: defending guards in space, pick and roll, etc
2: rim protection
3: defensive rebounding

As good as Love is at number 3, he is bad at 1 and 2. And that makes him a net negative defensively. eilte offensive players like Harden overpower the defensive negative and are still elite overall in terms of impact. Love is really good, but not elite offensively.

Also, IMO, in 2019, as the game becomes more and more perimeter based, I would argue that defensive contributions from big men are as important if not more so than their offense. This is not true for guards and wings. Love's shooting and other offensive skills have value to be sure. But it is a lot easier to pick on a big man who is an defensive liability than it is to pick on a perimeter guy.

Love is still a net positive overall, just not as positive as you think he is. Mostly because of how the game has changed and how bigs are used defensively.