2018-2019 NBA Regular Season Thread

[dtgold88]

OK, but again, context is important.

The only reason we are overanalyzing Kevin Love's defense is because we have a few Cleveland fans who are very vocal about what they perceive Love's value to be. And pretty much everyone else disgrees with your take and Wiggy's take.

And I respect your opinion because you argue it with facts and never try to get personal. But I disagree strongly.

The reason I don't respect Wiggy is because of his antics and how 2 faced he is. He has always lauded Tristan Thomson because of his ability to defend in space, protect the rim and rebound. He talks about how valuable that is in the modern NBA.

And you know what? He is right about TT.

But then as soon as somebody tries to have a logical debate bringing up Love's faults, he completely ignores them and only talks about his 3 point shooting and rebounding.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that TT is a highly valuable commodity because he is a terrific modern big defender, then also pretend that Love's struggles on that end don't impact his overall value.

1 way players defintely do have value in the modern NBA. 2 way players just have more. Neither Love nor TT are net positives on both ends of the court.

There were a few who rated their top players 6-10 or above and I had Love roughly where they did. Not sure how you think I value him that much more.

And while only my opinion I find most go to defense when they have nothing else in a debate. Is it important? sure, but no more important than offense, and far more difficult to quantify. Do you disagree the narrative on Love would be different if he were a fake toughguy who was loud, yelled at refs and kicked players in the nads? Barkley was kind of like that and rarely did anyone mention his defense and I doubt they would if he played today.

as for wiggy, he is his own person. I'm not a fan of namecalling in these forums but know it happens. Assuming we are all adults here and everyone gets to post how they want. That's just never been my style. I was not here when he was making those points about TT but I would call him out if I thought he contradicted himself (as I hope he would me).

I'm sure you've seen fans of teams come at me like that and while I am not asking you to "come to my rescue" you stay silent (even when I am right, and have proven as much with facts) or might even take their side. I don't hold it against you because, like you, I have enjoyed our conversations as they have been civil as you said and you have shown you actually listen to what the other person is saying when you don't necessarily agree (as I try to do).

 

[True Lakers Fan]

I'm not diminishing Love. He's a good player. And he can be a very good player sometimes. But he's always been a defensive liability despite his defensive rebounds.





I have no problem with you arguing points. But you start challenging my motives(ie accuse me of ignoring a point because your post was oh so good) I'm going to fire back.

Kevin Love is a defensive liability and his defensive rebounds do not change that. Full stop.

I haven't really cared for Love's game in a few years. I think his stats overstate his quality in a way

 

[dtgold88]

Except that both of them were highly regarded because they were defensively sound players that were able to hold the defensive line.

If they are no longer defensively sound and they can't hit perimeter shots, then what is their role in the NBA today?

Barkley and Malone were defensively sound? Really?

 

[Sir Robin Of Camelot]

I don't disagree nor do I blame you for being excited about the Mavs' future, but this was just deflection from me refuting your comment about the current east.

say what ya will about the guy, but I will take obscene will to win as the #1 criteria I want in an owner like he has.

Current #8 seed in the East - 19.5 out (2 teams under .500)
Current #8 seed in the West - 9.5 out (SAS 5 games over .500j

THAT’S what I mean by competitive. But you go ahead and keep trying.

 

[dtgold88]

I'm not diminishing Love. He's a good player. And he can be a very good player sometimes. But he's always been a defensive liability despite his defensive rebounds.





I have no problem with you arguing points. But you start challenging my motives(ie accuse me of ignoring a point because your post was oh so good) I'm going to fire back.

Kevin Love is a defensive liability and his defensive rebounds do not change that. Full stop.

Challenging your motives? I am refuting your comments with logic and facts. No more than that. You wanted to diminish Love's rebounding because he is tall and under the basket. You know, like most guys his size or taller who don't rebound as well as he does.

 

[dtgold88]

Current #8 seed in the East - 19.5 out (2 teams under .500)
Current #8 seed in the West - 9.5 out (SAS 5 games over .500j

THAT’S what I mean by competitive. But you go ahead and keep trying.

I don't doubt 6-8 in the West is much better, but 1-5 in East stands up to 1-5 (or at least 2-5 not counting GS) in West. Top 3 in east will have an easier go of it than top 3 in West in round 1 only . But other than that no one has an advantage IMO.....taking GS out of picture as they are far ahead of anyone still IMO.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Barkley and Malone were defensively sound? Really?

Come on DT...Just look at the advanced stats. Malone was a top 20 defensive rated guy 11 seasons and Barkley four times. Love is a negative box plus minus for his career. Because of his bad defense his VORP has only been top 20 three times. Barkley did it 13 and Malone 16.

Now one can say era to era Love could be a better defender in the 90's and Barkley especially be a less capable one now but let's not do this

Malone has been an MVP. Barkley has been an MVP

Love has never even been in the conversation.

 

[dtgold88]

Come on DT...Just look at the advanced stats. Malone was a top 20 defensive rated guy 11 seasons and Barkley four times. Love is a negative box plus minus for his career. Because of his bad defense his VORP has only been top 20 three times. Barkley did it 13 and Malone 16.

Now one can say era to era Love could be a better defender in the 90's and Barkley especially be a less capable one now but let's not do this

Malone has been an MVP. Barkley has been an MVP

Love has never even been in the conversation.

which is why I started by saying Love is not Barkley nor Malone.

But come on, each of those guys considered defense to be a rumor and believe they would care less now.

 

[Bolts]

Don't get so down yet bud but I think the Spurs are almost a lock due to how good they are at home (23-7).

11 home games left so I think it is a good bet to say they win 7 or 8 of those which brings them to 41-42 wins which means they only need 2 or 3 of their final 8 road games to get to 44/45 wins which seems like would get you in the playoffs.

But yeah I just looked at the Kings remaining schedule and doesn't look good.

Pretty important 4 games stretch coming up though where they play the Knicks 2x, home vs Boston, and away to Washington.

Win 3 of those 4 and you're at 34-32 still in the fight in middle of March.

Back to the Kings schedule, they have road games left against Boston, Philly, Lakers, Spurs, Houston, Utah, and Portland. That is difficult. Only good thing is their home schedule is pretty soft so to make the playoffs or at least still be in the mix in the final 5 games of the season, they need to win most of their remaining home games.

The Spurs do have to face the Thunder(minus PG), Nuggets, Blazers, Bucks, and Warriors at home, but I could see them winning at least 2 of those. For the Kings, they pretty much need a miracle of either the Spurs struggling at home the rest of the way or the Clippers nosediving along with them going 13-7 the rest of the way which MIGHT get them in.

 

[flyerhawk]

Barkley and Malone were defensively sound? Really?

Malone was a 4 time All-NBA defensive player.

 

[dtgold88]

Malone was a 4 time All-NBA defensive player.

Admittedly was going by what I remember and I was wrong about his overall D it seems. I just recall him often being lazy and didn't care.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

which is why I started by saying Love is not Barkley nor Malone.

But come on, each of those guys considered defense to be a rumor and believe they would care less now.

The stats on Malone indicate strongly otherwise. Barkley yes at times

You have tended to try to underestimate just how bad Love is defensively. Just take in consideration a guy who can go 20/10 and shoot so well only making top 20 VORP 3 times. That's how bad he is on defense.

 

[flyerhawk]

Challenging your motives? I am refuting your comments with logic and facts. No more than that. You wanted to diminish Love's rebounding because he is tall and under the basket. You know, like most guys his size or taller who don't rebound as well as he does.

I'm not diminishing anything. I'm stating fairly obvious facts that everyone but you seem to agree on.

Last year, Kevin Love was 11th in the league in defensive rebounds per 100 possessions. That's good. But that hardly makes up for his glaring weaknesses in other areas.

 

[msgkings322]

I cannot say I kept track of all your comments but if he's taking them out of context, OK. But come on......just in the last day I've seen far worse than this hurled my way and much of what he said was fair.

I was the recipient of a comical Yosemite Sam-like namecalling meltdown by @msgkings322 all because he could not man up and admit he was wrong that @Wamu in no way thought Love and Klay were similar players.......proven with his own comments.

I will say while we have had adversarial discussions I feel like you know the game (as do most here).

Yeah that's not how it happened. I'm sure you can find me melting down like Yosemite Sam if I did that...but of course you can't because I didn't. Also, the posts are all here showing what Wamu was trying to say, how you were twisting his words into meanings he obviously never intended and how right I was and you were wrong.

I mean, I don't even think you know who Yosemite Sam is. This is Yosemite Sam:


And this is me:


Easy mistake to make.

 

[msgkings322]

Once again your explanation is a generic explanation. You said "in today's game I want the outside shooter"

Lie, dance, deflect. Wont matter. Cannot get around the comment. Even msg's attempts to save you wont work when he gets caught in his own lies and deflection.....though you didn't call on him, so can't put that on you.

You're to lawyer-y for this place. Or maybe just have trouble with social nuance. Are you on the spetrum? Genuinely curious, not trying to insult, I have friends and family who are. You argue like that.

 

[msgkings322]

This is just old. And you're just being stubborn. I've repeatedly said I'd rather have Klay over Love. Why does that bother you so much?

What do you not understand that I'm only comparing Klay & Love. Not Klay & AD. Not Klay & Embiid. And not Klay & anyone else.

I think he's a little 'spergy. Obvious stuff is hard for them. And I'm not even trying to insult with that, it's how he argues.

 

[tlance]

There were a few who rated their top players 6-10 or above and I had Love roughly where they did. Not sure how you think I value him that much more.

And while only my opinion I find most go to defense when they have nothing else in a debate. Is it important? sure, but no more important than offense, and far more difficult to quantify. Do you disagree the narrative on Love would be different if he were a fake toughguy who was loud, yelled at refs and kicked players in the nads? Barkley was kind of like that and rarely did anyone mention his defense and I doubt they would if he played today.

as for wiggy, he is his own person. I'm not a fan of namecalling in these forums but know it happens. Assuming we are all adults here and everyone gets to post how they want. That's just never been my style. I was not here when he was making those points about TT but I would call him out if I thought he contradicted himself (as I hope he would me).

I'm sure you've seen fans of teams come at me like that and while I am not asking you to "come to my rescue" you stay silent (even when I am right, and have proven as much with facts) or might even take their side. I don't hold it against you because, like you, I have enjoyed our conversations as they have been civil as you said and you have shown you actually listen to what the other person is saying when you don't necessarily agree (as I try to do).

Yes. I disagree that the narrative on Love would be different if he acted like Draymond.

And clearly you and I disagree on Draymond. While I don't like his antics at times, he earned his rep as an elite defender with his play. Honestly, the antics only hurt him in debates like these because a lot of people don't like him.

So if Kevin Love acted like that, it would hurt his cause. IT defintely wouldn't help.

 

[msgkings322]

are you saying you want the shooter over the inside guy but lesser shooter "in today's NBA" but only if it's Klay vs. love? This is the only comparison where your theory applies? Seriously, that's what you are going with?

Ya gotta love this forum.

Where you are screwing this up is, not every 'inside guy' is the same level. So while one might prefer Klay to an inside guy of Love's caliber, that has nothing to do with if one would prefer Klay to a better inside guy like AD or Embiid.

This is trivially obvious to neurotypicals.

 

[tlance]

The stats on Malone indicate strongly otherwise. Barkley yes at times

You have tended to try to underestimate just how bad Love is defensively. Just take in consideration a guy who can go 20/10 and shoot so well only making top 20 VORP 3 times. That's how bad he is on defense.

Yeah,

And barkley was really only a liability later in his career when he lost some of his bounce.

Early career he was pretty solid. And probably athletic enough that 6er Charles would have been solid today too.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yeah,

And barkley was really only a liability later in his career when he lost some of his bounce.

Early career he was pretty solid. And probably athletic enough that 6er Charles would have been solid today too.

Yea I was just thinking Barkley would've just kept his build leaner

In the old NBA his big body was needed for banging in the paint.