Demaryius Thomas gets paid long term

[NWPATSFAN]

A little research goes a very long ways. There is only $2.5 million in dead money by cutting Manning after this season. That means about $19 million in extra cap space for the Broncos. Plenty to be able to sign Von Miller. Even without cutting Manning the Broncos still have plenty of room to sign Von Miller. First off Cap Space is just a magical number. The Broncos this next season could go out and sign every big name FA to big deals and still find a way to be under the cap. It wouldn't be smart obviously as eventually all those deals have to come up and the big cap hits will show up eventually. The Broncos though could easily sign Von Miller to a deal such as that of Justin Houston of 6-years $101 million and have his first year cap hit only be around $6 million. Look at the Suh deal in Miami. He signs the largest non-QB contract in NFL history and yet his first year Cap Hit is only $6 million this season. Again a little research goes a very long ways to not looking like an idiot.

Note I said I think. It's this year Pay-A-Ton is coming due. You're right guarentees come due. So you can mortgage the farm if you like. Also if you exceed the cap the team can get fined, lose picks, void contracts. I think Denver has some knowledge in this area.

 

[redseat]

Oh, they care, it's just not as simplistic an analysis as many fans make it out to be.

ok, far enough... Good way of thinking

 

[cdumler7]

Do teams really care about a "cap hit?" If they want a player or players badly enough they will take the penalty, no?

It is true. The good teams know how to really work contracts to their favor. Such as with the Broncos now having DT signed and good chance they get Von Miller signed. All you have to do is have the big cap hit in different years. So say DT has a cap hit of $20 million next year while Miller only has a $6 million cap hit. Then the next year you just reverse those numbers where both years it averages to about $13 million a player which is very manageable for two game changers like the two of them. NWPATSFAN is just hoping these type of deals cripple a rival. They really don't. Just like I argued earlier about with Suh signing with the Dolphins. First off in the next 2-years deals will become bigger than his and the final couple of years could even look like discounts.

 

[cdumler7]

Note I said I think. It's this year Pay-A-Ton is coming due. You're right guarentees come due. So you can mortgage the farm if you like. Also if you exceed the cap the team can get fined, lose picks, void contracts. I think Denver has some knowledge in this area.

Well not much thinking went into it when I could research it in a matter of a minute and come back with an answer showing you were way off. Also you can't exceed the cap. The NFL will not allow it so a team would have to cut contracts if that happened. Same as right now teams have to be under the cap with the 51 Contract rule in place. Once the season starts a team has to be under the cap for the top 53 contracts, plus IR players, plus PS players. The Broncos actually have a guy hired now that used to be the NFL Office top man of who had to approve or deny every contract in the NFL. He knows what a good contract looks like and those that destroy a franchise. It is why the Broncos have been one of the best teams in the league with the Cap since Elway took over and were able to sign in one off season Ware, Talib, Ward, and Sanders while still having one of the highest paid QB's in the league as well as one of the top LT's in the league in contract value. It is why signing DT right now even without knowing the details of the contract doesn't hinder our ability to sign Von Miller as well next year or even this year if we wanted. It is why almost every year the Broncos have close to $6 million in carry over money and are always top-5 in the least dead money in the league.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

Guy's on cloud9...new contract and Obama pardoned his mother's prison term as well. Good days ahead for him and those he loves.

 

[cdumler7]

Guy's on cloud9...new contract and Obama pardoned his mother's prison term as well. Good days ahead for him and those he loves.

He is actually a really great guy off the field so happy for him to get this deal and to have risen above his situation growing up and to now get to have his mom come watch him play this season. It definitely has been a good week for him.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Well not much thinking went into it when I could research it in a matter of a minute and come back with an answer showing you were way off. Also you can't exceed the cap. The NFL will not allow it so a team would have to cut contracts if that happened. Same as right now teams have to be under the cap with the 51 Contract rule in place. Once the season starts a team has to be under the cap for the top 53 contracts, plus IR players, plus PS players. The Broncos actually have a guy hired now that used to be the NFL Office top man of who had to approve or deny every contract in the NFL. He knows what a good contract looks like and those that destroy a franchise. It is why the Broncos have been one of the best teams in the league with the Cap since Elway took over and were able to sign in one off season Ware, Talib, Ward, and Sanders while still having one of the highest paid QB's in the league as well as one of the top LT's in the league in contract value. It is why signing DT right now even without knowing the details of the contract doesn't hinder our ability to sign Von Miller as well next year or even this year if we wanted. It is why almost every year the Broncos have close to $6 million in carry over money and are always top-5 in the least dead money in the league.

Sportrac says at best without the DT deal Denver is about 13 mil under the cap.

 

[cdumler7]

Sportrac says at best without the DT deal Denver is about 13 mil under the cap.

Well Spotrac has shown to be off by quite a bit. Overthecap says they are $24 million under the cap for next year. Spotrac usually doesn't like to include the carryover money. That is one of the main reasons their numbers are off by quite a bit. Right now though for this season they have us at $19 million still in Cap Space before figuring out what the DT contract will be. For next season they have us at $16 million without DT included and no clue on the roll over plus they don't say what they have as the estimated cap space. Overthecap has theirs based on the Salary Cap being at $150 million. Actually that is my guess is they have their Salary Cap Space for next year based on the Salary Cap being about the same as this year. It would account for the difference between spotrac that says the Broncos have $16 million for next year and that of Overthecap saying the Broncos have just over $23 million. So again spotrac is not very accurate. They leave things out that more detailed ones like that of NFLPA Salary and Overthecap actually use.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Well Spotrac has shown to be off by quite a bit. Overthecap says they are $24 million under the cap for next year. Spotrac usually doesn't like to include the carryover money. That is one of the main reasons their numbers are off by quite a bit. Right now though for this season they have us at $19 million still in Cap Space before figuring out what the DT contract will be. For next season they have us at $16 million without DT included and no clue on the roll over plus they don't say what they have as the estimated cap space. Overthecap has theirs based on the Salary Cap being at $150 million. Actually that is my guess is they have their Salary Cap Space for next year based on the Salary Cap being about the same as this year. It would account for the difference between spotrac that says the Broncos have $16 million for next year and that of Overthecap saying the Broncos have just over $23 million. So again spotrac is not very accurate. They leave things out that more detailed ones like that of NFLPA Salary and Overthecap actually use.

Guess it depends on where we pull the numbers from on what we feel is accurate? Then again I would have to believe that the Broncos and their fans understand the cap NOW?

 

[cdumler7]

Guess it depends on where we pull the numbers from on what we feel is accurate? Then again I would have to believe that the Broncos and their fans understand the cap NOW?

We understand it just fine. In the above post of yours the numbers you pulled of spotrac were still the wrong ones. Right now this season they have the Broncos having $19.6 million in cap space. This is without the DT deal done. Now they say with any contract like that of DT you play the power of 20% meaning what his cap hit in the first year will be is usually 20% less than what the Franchise Tag would have been. So that means good chance the Cap Hit in year one will be $10.25 million. That would then mean about $9.4 million in carry over money for next season. Let's assume the Cap goes up to $150 million (probably better chance it is closer to $153 million but oh well). The Broncos have spent close to $127 million in money for next season. You subtract what DT will make which will probably be in the $14 million for year two from what they have and that would give the Broncos about $9 million in free cap space for next season. Doesn't sound like a lot but then add in the $9 million in carry over money and all of a sudden the Broncos have $18 million in cap space. Throw in then good chance Manning is gone after this season and good chance Clady is gone after this season. That even with dead money is another $27 million in Cap Space. So very good chance heading into next season the Broncos have $45 million in Cap Space. This is with using Spotrac the site that you like to use. With Overthecap and the NFLPA it is even a little more.

So tell me again how they can't sign Von Miller or that it will be almost impossible.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

We understand it just fine. In the above post of yours the numbers you pulled of spotrac were still the wrong ones. Right now this season they have the Broncos having $19.6 million in cap space. This is without the DT deal done. Now they say with any contract like that of DT you play the power of 20% meaning what his cap hit in the first year will be is usually 20% less than what the Franchise Tag would have been. So that means good chance the Cap Hit in year one will be $10.25 million. That would then mean about $9.4 million in carry over money for next season. Let's assume the Cap goes up to $150 million (probably better chance it is closer to $153 million but oh well). The Broncos have spent close to $127 million in money for next season. You subtract what DT will make which will probably be in the $14 million for year two from what they have and that would give the Broncos about $9 million in free cap space for next season. Doesn't sound like a lot but then add in the $9 million in carry over money and all of a sudden the Broncos have $18 million in cap space. Throw in then good chance Manning is gone after this season and good chance Clady is gone after this season. That even with dead money is another $27 million in Cap Space. So very good chance heading into next season the Broncos have $45 million in Cap Space. This is with using Spotrac the site that you like to use. With Overthecap and the NFLPA it is even a little more.

So tell me again how they can't sign Von Miller or that it will be almost impossible.

First you have a lot of what if's and could be's. I'm not discounting what you're saying about how the cap works. What you feel to account for is how much will you pay for PMs back up? Or is Oswieller your answer? What about FAs you may or may not sign? Don't forget to include rookies. How many contracts come due in 16 or 17?
I understand Den will do whatever they can to sign Miller. But please let's not make it sound lije the way you started the thread where a team could hypothetically go out and sign every big FA.

 

[cdumler7]

First you have a lot of what if's and could be's. I'm not discounting what you're saying about how the cap works. What you feel to account for is how much will you pay for PMs back up? Or is Oswieller your answer? What about FAs you may or may not sign? Don't forget to include rookies. How many contracts come due in 16 or 17?
I understand Den will do whatever they can to sign Miller. But please let's not make it sound lije the way you started the thread where a team could hypothetically go out and sign every big FA.

Again hypothetically a team could do this no problem. It would work great for one year and the next year would completely destroy the team. That is not wrong in any sense of what I typed. So again you saying it to be about impossible for the Broncos to sign both DT and Miller is just flat out wrong. Yes there is more that goes into the team for next year beyond just signing Miller. This past year though we saw with the Broncos what Elway has wanted from the beginning is that of more relying on his draft with letting good but not great players to walk. Beyond Miller the homegrown talent up for FA next year is that of Wolfe, Jackson, Trevathan, Osweiler. That is our 2012 draft pretty much right there. Jackson and Osweiler are the two most likely to be resigned of that group. The team already has Trevathan's replacement on the team and Wolfe while good will probably move on and be replaced by a draft pick. Osweiler because he has not seen the field and probably will not again this year other than spot duty will most likely sign a 2-year prove it deal with lots of incentives built in. It won't be a tough contract to sign. Jackson could be the one that gets tough if he has a break out year along with that of Miller. We shall see. Yes I do have a lot of hypotheticals in my post above but none of them are that crazy. Clady has I think the 3rd highest cap hit next year at this time and now will have missed 2 of the last 3 seasons because of injury with the other one grading out as the 22nd best LT in the game. The Broncos used a 2nd round pick on a guy they think can replace him and will start this year. So good chance his salary is off the books. Peyton we shall see if he decides to play the last year of his contract or not. Even with him staying the Broncos as I have said through this whole thing could easily just have Von Miller's first year Cap Hit be a low one and then have his big cap hit in year 2 when Manning is for sure off the books and at that point so is DeMarcus Ware.

The Broncos also have other contracts that they have built in that after year 2 they can easily get out of such as that of Talib and Ward. Obviously keeping Von Miller is much more important than either of those guys so if it comes down to it the team could let those guys go. I don't think that will be necessary though.

 

[cdumler7]

AT this point NWPATSFAN all you have done is use numbers that were completely wrong to try and make a point and then say "it won't be as easy as you are making it" without really actually show why. I've shown easily how this team can make all this work with keeping Manning and without Manning after this season. Please at least bring something to conversation here.

 

[redseat]

It is true. The good teams know how to really work contracts to their favor. Such as with the Broncos now having DT signed and good chance they get Von Miller signed. All you have to do is have the big cap hit in different years. So say DT has a cap hit of $20 million next year while Miller only has a $6 million cap hit. Then the next year you just reverse those numbers where both years it averages to about $13 million a player which is very manageable for two game changers like the two of them. NWPATSFAN is just hoping these type of deals cripple a rival. They really don't. Just like I argued earlier about with Suh signing with the Dolphins. First off in the next 2-years deals will become bigger than his and the final couple of years could even look like discounts.

While I would love it for the Broncos and Dolphins to screw themselves money wise I don't see that happening as well. Good break-down of the cap "hit" I am still wondering why the Dolphins picked up Suh... They already have igcagnito mess so why this mess as well?

 

[cdumler7]

While I would love it for the Broncos and Dolphins to screw themselves money wise I don't see that happening as well. Good break-down of the cap "hit" I am still wondering why the Dolphins picked up Suh... They already have igcagnito mess so why this mess as well?

Yeah they are definitely taking a chance with a guy like Suh but he hasn't had the off the field issues like that of Icognito. I'm also not the biggest fan of how they did their contract. I think they could have leveled it out a bit more to make the big cap hits not so crazy and just added a bit more to this first year. They got their guy though so we shall see how it pans out. Usually big contracts are hard for players to live up to. It is the same with the Broncos signing DT here but the money is in line with his type of talent and what the position is getting paid. He has had no issues off the field, has been a team captain, and fits the mold of being that game changer that in one play can completely change the outcome of a game. Mostly teams like the Dolphins and now the Broncos just like with any great team it still comes down to the draft. If you draft well then these type of contracts don't usually come back to haunt you. If you draft terribly though and have to lean on FA to stay relevant then you can quickly find yourself in Cap Hell.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Yeah they are definitely taking a chance with a guy like Suh but he hasn't had the off the field issues like that of Icognito. I'm also not the biggest fan of how they did their contract. I think they could have leveled it out a bit more to make the big cap hits not so crazy and just added a bit more to this first year. They got their guy though so we shall see how it pans out. Usually big contracts are hard for players to live up to. It is the same with the Broncos signing DT here but the money is in line with his type of talent and what the position is getting paid. He has had no issues off the field, has been a team captain, and fits the mold of being that game changer that in one play can completely change the outcome of a game. Mostly teams like the Dolphins and now the Broncos just like with any great team it still comes down to the draft. If you draft well then these type of contracts don't usually come back to haunt you. If you draft terribly though and have to lean on FA to stay relevant then you can quickly find yourself in Cap Hell.

First off I'm sitting on my deck typing on my tablet. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth to every page you quote. My initial numbers were guesses just like I stated. I then went to Sportrac. You don't like them I understand.
My initial post said they couldn't sign unless something happens to Manning. I should've been more clear and said something like getting rid of a bunch of other contracts... But I didn't, shoot me. You want to make all kinds of assumptions without even knowing what DTs guarentees are? For all we know it's heavily front loaded? Making a lot of what you think may happen null and void.
Honestly good luck. I enjoy watching the Pats beat teams at their best.

 

[cdumler7]

First off I'm sitting on my deck typing on my tablet. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth to every page you quote. My initial numbers were guesses just like I stated. I then went to Sportrac. You don't like them I understand.
My initial post said they couldn't sign unless something happens to Manning. I should've been more clear and said something like getting rid of a bunch of other contracts... But I didn't, shoot me. You want to make all kinds of assumptions without even knowing what DTs guarentees are? For all we know it's heavily front loaded? Making a lot of what you think may happen null and void.
Honestly good luck. I enjoy watching the Pats beat teams at their best.

Again I showed that even with keeping everybody that we have under contract for next year in Clady, Manning, Ware, and all others it is still something that can get done. You seem to think that the Broncos are ridiculously strapped for money for the Cap. Again just look to your rival Miami and what they just did with Suh. He has a $6 million Cap Hit this upcoming season yet is the highest paid Defensive player in the league. This is not a matter of whether the team can keep Von. It is more everybody else that gets more difficult to sign if those other guys all decide to come back and the team decides to keep them all instead of trading or cutting them.

Look at the Seahawks as another great example...They have Thomas signed to I think the biggest Safety contract in the NFL. They have Sherman signed to the 2nd or 3rd biggest Corner contract in the NFL. They are paying guys like Lynch top dollar, Bennett big money, just traded for Graham making top TE money, and are working on signing Wilson to one of the largest contracts in NFL history while also working to sign Wagner to one of the largest ILB contracts in the NFL. Yet they still have what is considered the best and deepest roster in the NFL. So again the overall Cap Space for any given season is just a number floating out there. The best teams in the league know how to work contracts for about a 3-year window is what they are looking at and making sure they are not getting too many big contracts that will kill them in the future.

You are just showing that your understanding of the Cap just isn't quite there. You have the basics down which is great but the little details are where things really matter when it comes to the Cap. Yes I don't know the final numbers for DT's contract but looking at other contracts that Elway has signed in his time with the Broncos does give me a pretty good idea of what his contract looks like. I doubt he has all of a sudden completely changed how he does contracts. So yes I can have a pretty darn good idea of what our Cap looks like for this year and for next and right now even with DT the Broncos are in fine shape to sign Von Miller. What happens with some cuts will determine the rest after this season but can't worry about that now.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Again I showed that even with keeping everybody that we have under contract for next year in Clady, Manning, Ware, and all others it is still something that can get done. You seem to think that the Broncos are ridiculously strapped for money for the Cap. Again just look to your rival Miami and what they just did with Suh. He has a $6 million Cap Hit this upcoming season yet is the highest paid Defensive player in the league. This is not a matter of whether the team can keep Von. It is more everybody else that gets more difficult to sign if those other guys all decide to come back and the team decides to keep them all instead of trading or cutting them.

Look at the Seahawks as another great example...They have Thomas signed to I think the biggest Safety contract in the NFL. They have Sherman signed to the 2nd or 3rd biggest Corner contract in the NFL. They are paying guys like Lynch top dollar, Bennett big money, just traded for Graham making top TE money, and are working on signing Wilson to one of the largest contracts in NFL history while also working to sign Wagner to one of the largest ILB contracts in the NFL. Yet they still have what is considered the best and deepest roster in the NFL. So again the overall Cap Space for any given season is just a number floating out there. The best teams in the league know how to work contracts for about a 3-year window is what they are looking at and making sure they are not getting too many big contracts that will kill them in the future.

You are just showing that your understanding of the Cap just isn't quite there. You have the basics down which is great but the little details are where things really matter when it comes to the Cap. Yes I don't know the final numbers for DT's contract but looking at other contracts that Elway has signed in his time with the Broncos does give me a pretty good idea of what his contract looks like. I doubt he has all of a sudden completely changed how he does contracts. So yes I can have a pretty darn good idea of what our Cap looks like for this year and for next and right now even with DT the Broncos are in fine shape to sign Von Miller. What happens with some cuts will determine the rest after this season but can't worry about that now.

You win, I'm tapping out. Again good luck.

 

[Texas Jefe]

so, there was collusion between teams, between agents, between everybody.

And the two players end up getting almost identical contracts. Pretty funny.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

NFLPA - NFLPA Homepage says Denver has about 6 million in cap space? They took into account the carryover. Just saying who do we believe?