Cheating: the poll!

[DutchBird]

Oh I get it the old "Everyone does it" defense. I thought that wasn't a legitimate excuse or does this just apply to Belichick and the Patriots....

Again!

Where did I say everyone does it? The Saints training staff openly encouraged it, where there is no evidence others did. That said, I have yet to see a team punish one of their own players for dirty play (regardless of whether the play results in injury or not).

To my knowledge there is not a single team - other than the Patriots - that have been caught (or even alleged) to have come close to what the Patriots were doing under Belichick regarding both the illegal recording of signald on video-tape as well as illegal use of radio communications (let alone the combination of the two).

The sole occasion where everyone taped an opponent's practice was when Snyder introduced paid access to the Redskins' training camp and in doing so invalidated the no-video taping by other teams clause.

 

[GNG]

I'm still going with Bountygate which I think is about as heinous as you can get in a sport.

 

[evolver115]

Yeah we will disagree. It's that competitive a sport. I think it speaks volume positively of Belichick. The best coaches in NFL history were always ahead of the game.

Where he royally screwed up was doing it illegally after being warned by the NFL. Absolute arrogance there.

I can appreciate that Bill is that much a history buff that he uses it as a teaching tool to his players. Personally, I think that is pretty freakin' cool. I also realize that a man who has that much of an appreciation of history also knows the methods with which that knowledge can be employed to win at a game. This is where I draw the line. It's A GAME. Men aren't dying, civilians aren't beind displaced because of war. It's taking it too far. Some of the tactics lend themselves to winning in football, and I'm cool with that. But the counter-intelligence thing, i.e. Spygate.. that's just not right.

 

[PatsFan2003]

Where did I say everyone does it? The Saints training staff openly encouraged it, where there is no evidence others did. That said, I have yet to see a team punish one of their own players for dirty play (regardless of whether the play results in injury or not).

To my knowledge there is not a single team - other than the Patriots - that have been caught (or even alleged) to have come close to what the Patriots were doing under Belichick regarding both the illegal recording of signald on video-tape as well as illegal use of radio communications (let alone the combination of the two).

The sole occasion where everyone taped an opponent's practice was when Snyder introduced paid access to the Redskins' training camp and in doing so invalidated the no-video taping by other teams clause.

I think others were saying the practice to injure players is a common practice in the nfl and at least winked at by the coaches. So that's where the "everyone does it" comment comes from.

Which I don't disagree with. It IS a very tough league. I think it happens more than we want to admit.

but yeah, the Saint coaches openly promoted it as part of the culture of the team which is why I think it makes deflategate pale in comparision.

Gaining intelligence in the NFL is a common practice. I think there is official video tape isn't there? Belichick got busted for making his own tapes.

 

[PatsFan2003]

I can appreciate that Bill is that much a history buff that he uses it as a teaching tool to his players. Personally, I think that is pretty freakin' cool. I also realize that a man who has that much of an appreciation of history also knows the methods with which that knowledge can be employed to win at a game. This is where I draw the line. It's A GAME. Men aren't dying, civilians aren't beind displaced because of war. It's taking it too far. Some of the tactics lend themselves to winning in football, and I'm cool with that. But the counter-intelligence thing, i.e. Spygate.. that's just not right.

It's a game played at an extremely high level where the importance of winning is HUUUGE. So gaining an advantage by gleaning a classic book of military strategy is freaking cool indeed. That's the positive accolades that Belichick deserves imo.

I'm sure the Art of War is also promoted in Business as well.

Yeah Belichick being the ultimate obsessive compulsive type A type common of many coaches in the NFL went too far. He should have been able to get more from what was available and stayed at that. He most certainly should have stopped after the warnings. I can't help but think he regrets that.

Keeping on the military theme. George Patton was considered a brilliant military general but he was also something of a nut and slave driver to his soldiers. Belichick isn't perfect either.

 

[PatsFan2003]

I don't know how you couldn't think otherwise. It think it's horrible and probably worse for the game than any of the other offenses. All of them.

 

[evolver115]

It's a game played at an extremely high level where the importance of winning is HUUUGE. So gaining an advantage by gleaning a classic book of military strategy is freaking cool indeed. That's the positive accolades that Belichick deserves imo.

I'm sure the Art of War is also promoted in Business as well.

Yeah Belichick being the ultimate obsessive compulsive type A type common of many coaches in the NFL went too far. He should have been able to get more from what was available and stayed at that. He most certainly should have stopped after the warnings. I can't help but think he regrets that.

Bill truly is a win at all costs type. And you are right, the game is played at a high enough level where the value of winning can't be any higher of a goal. It's currently the most lucrative professional sport in N. America, so I can understand the mentality that goes into winning.

Still, there is a price to be paid when that much effort goes into that kind of an obsession. The Pats will be sacrificing a second #1 draft pick in less than ten seasons, plus a 4th in 2017, and 1 million dollars, as well as a 4 game suspension to the QB, all in the name of gaining a competitive advantage. I'm not saying others in the league aren't doing the same thing, but no one has sacrificed more in the NFL than what the Pats have during Belichick's time as HC, all in the name of winning.

It may be true the Bill didn't know anything about deflating footballs, but his mentality of winning at all costs is instilled in every man on his roster, including the quarterback. I don't doubt for one second that TB has been heavily influenced by Bill, and you could say is partly responsible for this.

 

[Texas Jefe]

it's definitely the gambling one.

Goes to the heart of integrity of the game.

 

[PatsFan2003]

Bill truly is a win at all costs type. And you are right, the game is played at a high enough level where the value of winning can't be any higher of a goal. It's currently the most lucrative professional sport in N. America, so I can understand the mentality that goes into winning.

Still, there is a price to be paid when that much effort goes into that kind of an obsession. The Pats will be sacrificing a second #1 draft pick in less than ten seasons, plus a 4th in 2017, and 1 million dollars, as well as a 4 game suspension to the QB, all in the name of gaining a competitive advantage. I'm not saying others in the league aren't doing the same thing, but no one has sacrificed more in the NFL than what the Pats have during Belichick's time as HC, all in the name of winning.

It may be true the Bill didn't know anything about deflating footballs, but his mentality of winning at all costs is instilled in every man on his roster, including the quarterback. I don't doubt for one second that TB has been heavily influenced by Bill, and you could say is partly responsible for this.

As a Patriots fan I did expect a suspension, fine and loss of draft pick but I think it's all quite excessive.

I think the scrutiny the Patriots face has gotten unfair and allows lesser teams to fight them by finding wrinkles in the rules to complain about. As if the Patriots are the only ones doing it.

And the fans from teams with their own skeletons...

 

[PatsFan2003]

Bill truly is a win at all costs type. And you are right, the game is played at a high enough level where the value of winning can't be any higher of a goal. It's currently the most lucrative professional sport in N. America, so I can understand the mentality that goes into winning.

Still, there is a price to be paid when that much effort goes into that kind of an obsession. The Pats will be sacrificing a second #1 draft pick in less than ten seasons, plus a 4th in 2017, and 1 million dollars, as well as a 4 game suspension to the QB, all in the name of gaining a competitive advantage. I'm not saying others in the league aren't doing the same thing, but no one has sacrificed more in the NFL than what the Pats have during Belichick's time as HC, all in the name of winning.

It may be true the Bill didn't know anything about deflating footballs, but his mentality of winning at all costs is instilled in every man on his roster, including the quarterback. I don't doubt for one second that TB has been heavily influenced by Bill, and you could say is partly responsible for this.

I.e. the Patton example. Shelby Foote, the noted Civil War historian, cited the loss at Gettysburg as the price for having Robert E. Lee.

Not a bad example.

 

[evolver115]

As a Patriots fan I did expect a suspension, fine and loss of draft pick but I think it's all quite excessive.

I think the scrutiny the Patriots face has gotten unfair and allows lesser teams to fight them by finding wrinkles in the rules to complain about. As if the Patriots are the only ones doing it.

And the fans from teams with their own skeletons...

But would you not agree that the scrutiny is well founded? I mean, it's no secret with which they are willing to go to gain an edge to win.

 

[DutchBird]

I think others were saying the practice to injure players is a common practice in the nfl and at least winked at by the coaches. So that's where the "everyone does it" comment comes from.

Which I don't disagree with. It IS a very tough league. I think it happens more than we want to admit.

but yeah, the Saint coaches openly promoted it as part of the culture of the team which is why I think it makes deflategate pale in comparision.

Gaining intelligence in the NFL is a common practice. I think there is official video tape isn't there? Belichick got busted for making his own tapes.

From what I have seen, none of the official tapes shows coaching signals at all - at least not the coaches tape now available to any fan who wants to pay for it. These tapes show time, down, distance and IIRC the playclock. And Bill Bellichick was targeting coaching signals, defensive signals in particular - even after being told that was illegal (and it already being illegal by inference/common understanding). The only tapes showing signals are the ones of the TV broadcast.

What made it even more egregious is the fact that around the same time accusations surfaced (and allegedly the Pats being questioned by the NFL) about the Pats using radio to communicate with Brady after the 15-second cutt off, and them using frequencies outside of those designated by the NFL.

 

[GNG]

I don't know how you couldn't think otherwise. It think it's horrible and probably worse for the game than any of the other offenses. All of them.

Any form of cheating is bad but this isn't the first time the Patriots have been caught with their pants down.

 

[Rock Strongo]

Any form of cheating is bad but this isn't the first time the Patriots have been caught with their pants down.

no shit. the broncos got caught TWICE circumventing the salary cap, lost nearly 2 million plus multiple picks.

that was AFTER back to back titles, and no one cried a word.

 

[evolver115]

no shit. the broncos got caught TWICE circumventing the salary cap, lost nearly 2 million plus multiple picks.

that was AFTER back to back titles, and no one cried a word.

Your point is sound. However, mass media is a completely different animal than it was in 1998. Internet, twitter, 24 hour news cycle, etc. It's a brave new world.

 

[Rock Strongo]

Your point is sound. However, mass media is a completely different animal than it was in 1998. Internet, twitter, 24 hour news cycle, etc. It's a brave new world.

totally agreed...but looking back historically?

the broncos win ZERO titles without paying elway and TD.

title centerpieces!

and they did it TWICE!

 

[evolver115]

totally agreed...but looking back historically?

the broncos win ZERO titles without paying elway and TD.

title centerpieces!

and they did it TWICE!

The fact of the matter is you cannot get away with as much now as you could then. The passage of time in this country heavily influences the future.

Example: The 70's Steelers and steroids. I always love when this topic comes up. Steriods weren't officially made a drug that could only be administered by a doctor until 1991. Furthermore, steriods were prevalent in the National Football League as soon as the mid sixties. So people try to make argument that Pittsburgh wouldn't have won any of their 70's titles if it weren't from steriod use. Which, of course, is refuted by the above links that point out that it was in every lockerroom by the early seventies, and its long term effects weren't recognized until the late 80's, when the Fed. Gov't put the kabosh on them without a doctor prescribing them.

What the Broncos did in the late nineties, while being illegal in terms of the salary cap, benefited from the fact that the cap era in the NFL was still in its infancy(1994). They also benefited from the fact that the mass media was still using early 20th century tech to communicate news. People then didn't have the time or the care about things like this because it took too much effort to even worry about it.

 

[Rock Strongo]

The fact of the matter is you cannot get away with as much now as you could then. The passage of time in this country heavily influences the future.

Example: The 70's Steelers and steroids. I always love when this topic comes up. Steriods weren't officially made a drug that could only be administered by a doctor until 1991. Furthermore, steriods were prevalent in the National Football League as soon as the mid sixties. So people try to make argument that Pittsburgh wouldn't have won any of their 70's titles if it weren't from steriod use. Which, of course, is refuted by the above links that point out that it was in every lockerroom by the early seventies, and its long term effects weren't recognized until the late 80's, when the Fed. Gov't put the kabosh on them without a doctor prescribing them.

What the Broncos did in the late nineties, while being illegal in terms of the salary cap, benefited from the fact that the cap era in the NFL was still in its infancy(1994). They also benefited from the fact that the mass media was still using early 20th century tech to communicate news. People then didn't have the time or the care about things like this because it took too much effort to even worry about it.

the stickum one gets me.

jerry rice literally humiliated himself and hasnt recovered..."oops, sorry...but everyone did it back then!"

the chargers in 2012...another one.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Now that the verdict is in...which is the worst of all the scandals?

I am late to the game apparently, but what is meant by WORST of all... I mean of course beating your wife or child is the worst thing anyone has done on your list... But that was an individual off the field action... of the scandals you listed only the deflate gate was a direct CHEATING scandal...

 

[black francis]

no shit. the broncos got caught TWICE circumventing the salary cap, lost nearly 2 million plus multiple picks.

that was AFTER back to back titles, and no one cried a word.

I'm sure somebody did