8 Changes that I would like to see, prior to next game.

[martinez]

I agree dgf, we have every right to get pissed at rg3 when he makes a mistake or has a bad game as naturally everyone will do with every player but to demand we bench him for cousins and say we are destined to go 0-whatever is not fair.

 

[j_y19]

And my point continues to be the Griffin haters are most definitely not giving Griffin this latitude but they are for Cousins. You are right, those QBs took time but they had upside. And so does Griffn, certainly more than Cousins. Any objective person should to see that. The rope fans gave the QBs above is exactly the rope that Griffin should be afforded. Instead Redskins fans are starting Facebook pages trashing the guy just 2 years after he threw just 5 picks his rookie season. How does that stack up against Aikmen and company? . This is the behavior of Philly Fan, not Redskins fans, and that is why I am so disappointed in our fans.

The bottom line is had they picked him with one #1 pick this entire discussion would be totally different. But the hate comes from the resentment of the investment and that is totally unfair to the player. As is the double standard applied to Griffin vs Cousins.

I don't think we are in disagreement. My last comment is that just because someone expresses concern over rg3 in either his performance or attitude is not necessarily a Griffin hater. Just don't paint with such a large brush. As I stated erlier, I thin most of us are in that middle where we have concerns but recognize you have to let him play until it's clearer what he will be.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I don't think we are in disagreement. My last comment is that just because someone expresses concern over rg3 in either his performance or attitude is not necessarily a Griffin hater. Just don't paint with such a large brush. As I stated erlier, I thin most of us are in that middle where we have concerns but recognize you have to let him play until it's clearer what he will be.

But it's not just this board, it's all over the DC area, the radio, the Post and so on. It's typical fan overreaction to what they have seen lately. These same fans were trashing the owner for not showing patience and they are behaving in the exact same manner. And by booing him on Sunday and starting Facebook pages trashing the guy they are Philly Fan, period, and I guess I expected better from our fans.

Again I share some of the concerns. We all get it that he needs to improve in certain areas and I'm not convinced that pocket awareness is something that can be learned. That scares the crap out of me. But he also does a lot of good things and we need this year and next before we need to make a decision.

 

[j_y19]

But it's not just this board, it's all over the DC area, the radio, the Post and so on. It's typical fan overreaction to what they have seen lately, these same fans were trashing the owner for not showing patience and they are behaving in the exact same manner. And by booing him on Sunday and starting Facebook pages they are Philly Fan, period.

Again I share some of the concerns. We all get it that he needs to improve in certtin areas and I'm not convinced that pocket awareness is something that can be learned. That scares the crap out of me. But he also does a lot of good things and we need this year and next before we need to make a decision.

You are right about pocket presence, I don't think it's a learned trait. He struggles with it. It's compounded by the fact that the middle of the pocket routinely collapses, leaving him no room to step up. Licht rarely let's his man get past him, but he constantly gets pushed back. All good pocket passers know how to step up into the pocket to buy a few seconds. Griffin tends to back up or run around the edge, sometimes into the waiting arms of a defender who has otherwise been blocked effectively.

As for how long rg3 gets, it depends. This is his 3rd year and although he has has a couple of different schemes to learn, he should be able to start reading defenses before the snap. That's true with any scheme you run. If he is showing progress by improving on reads and passing to receivers before they are open, then you stay with him. If he is still hanging onto the ball too long and telegraphing his passes, then I'm not so sure. It just depends if he is learning from his mistakes or not.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Here's another great example of fan's double standard. Mark Rypien was recently inducted into the Ring of Honor. "About time" "Well deserved" is all I heard. Mark Rypien was a big question mark going into that '91 season, he had many more problems than Griffin has including fumbling every time he was sacked. But because the team didn't spend 4 high picks they were overlooked by the fans.

So Rypien goes into '01 with an amazing OL and receivers. He has a clean pocket with plenty of time to throw, had clearly better weapons than Griffin has, and he had an amazing year. He's a hero and is now honored. But Robert Griffin, because of the high price the team paid and with no protection, is being booed on Sunday in his 30th start. Had he been drafted in 1990 he would probably be a hero too.

 

[Sharkinva]

Here's another great example of fan's double standard. Mark Rypien was recently inducted into the Ring of Honor. "About time" "Well deserved" is all I heard. Mark Rypien was a big question mark going into that '91 season, he had many more problems than Griffin has including fumbling every time he was sacked. But because the team didn't spend 4 high picks they were overlooked by the fans.

So Rypien goes into '01 with an amazing OL and receivers. He has a clean pocket with plenty of time to throw, had clearly better weapons than Griffin has, and he had an amazing year. He's a hero and is now honored. But Robert Griffin, because of the high price the team paid and with no protection, is being booed on Sunday in his 30th start. Had he been drafted in 1990 he would probably be a hero too.

Thats the thing, Griffin wasnt drafted in 1990, we DID give up 4 high draft picks for him. With greater cost SHOULD come greater expectation. I dont buy a Hyundai and expect it to perform like a Jaguar. But if I go in and pay four times the price, I would be livid if I then found out well it might take time for my Jag to perform like a Jag. Until such time as he proves to be WORTH what the team gave up for him, it will ALWAYS be a question of was he worth it. I know people want to say the cost doesnt matter. But you cant scream we needed to fix the line when we gave up three extra picks that could have done just that. I wouldnt be shocked if by the end of the year the question becomes should the Skins have just stood pat and took Tannehill, which was my question from the moment we made the trade.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Thats the thing, Griffin wasnt drafted in 1990, we DID give up 4 high draft picks for him. With greater cost SHOULD come greater expectation. I dont buy a Hyundai and expect it to perform like a Jaguar. But if I go in and pay four times the price, I would be livid if I then found out well it might take time for my Jag to perform like a Jag. Until such time as he proves to be WORTH what the team gave up for him, it will ALWAYS be a question of was he worth it. I know people want to say the cost doesnt matter. But you cant scream we needed to fix the line when we gave up three extra picks that could have done just that. I wouldnt be shocked if by the end of the year the question becomes should the Skins have just stood pat and took Tannehill, which was my question from the moment we made the trade.

Oh I totally understand why you feel this way. And your right, expectations should be higher But we also need to be realistic and fair here and give it some time to play out. And no 30 games, again with a lot of those being excellent games by Griffin, is not nearly enough time. And you make a fair point about the picks possibly being used to fix the line. The problem was it missed my point entirely. My point was you can't judge this QB fairly because of his lack of protection. You seem to want to do just that. My position has always been get the QB and you have plenty of time to build around him. They may never have another shot to get a guy rated so highly. .

And let's not put Tennehill in the Hall of Fame just yet. He's an OK looking young QB, nothing more, and has a better chance of being Alex Smith than Aaron Rodgers. Me? I have higher expectations than Alex Smith. I love that my team dared to be great. If it doesn't work out they at least took a shot rather than settling for the dreaded game manager.

.

 

[Sharkinva]

Oh I totally understand why you feel this way. And your right, expectations should be higher But we also need to be realistic and fair here and give it some time to play out. And no 30 games, again with a lot of those being excellent games by Griffin, is not nearly enough time.

And let's not put Tennehill in the Hall of Fame just yet. He's an OK looking young QB, nothing more, and has a better chance of being Alex Smith than Aaron Rodgers. Me? I have higher expectations than Alex Smith. I love that my team dared to be great. If it doesn't work out they at least took a shot rather than settling for the dreaded game manager.

.

OK let me ask you a simple question. YOu have to chose between two options.

Option one, you get Mike Vick for 3 1st and a 2nd round pick

Option two you get Alex Smith or one of the other none elite, but above average solid QBs for a single 1st rounder

Which do you choose?? And dont get me wrong, I was all for trading up to get a franchise QB. But from the moment his name came into the picture I saw more of Vick than Manning in RG3. As i said to Skinsdad.... Simple math RG3-RO=JC2.0

Now maybe he will prove me wrong, but the number of running QBs to successfully transition to pocket passers in the past 20 years of NFL can be counted in the single digits.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Well obviously I'll take the Smith. But revisionist history is too convenient. It's easy to look back now and make that call. But you seem Hell bent on proclaiming RGIII Michael Vick 2.0 and I'm not ready to do that just yet. And I'm sure not ready to bench him for Gus Frerotte 2.0 as you have been suggesting. Michael Vick struggled with accuracy his entire career. This has not been the case with Griffin, he hit's what he's throwing at and that is a huge distinction.

If I had to guess I'd say Griffin ends up in the Cutler/Randall Cunningham neighborhood. What I mean is he will show spectacularly at times but in the end may not be good enough. I would not have said that a year ago but I too can't dismiss what we are seeing. With that said Bears fans are sure a lot happer with Cutler than the clowns they've been trotting out year after year. Finally they have hope. And that's how I feel about Griffin. And again you are using revisionist history even if you had liked Tannehill on draft day. One of these picks could have just as easily been Jake Locker, Gabbert or Ponder. Let's not ever forget that.

 

[Stymietee]

Joe Gibbs coached without a salary cap. Please tell me where we are going to get the money under the cap to sign two high level lineman?

This team as currently constructed has a lot of unnecessary baggage, like more than half of the current starters on the OL. You can also count on eliminating the guys who could not beat them out. Moving or cutting guys like S.Moss and D. Hall would also save time and money on these types who are either rapidly aging or here basically here because they are good "locker room" guys. I would take a real objective look at guys who are or will be year long inactives. I would also insist that my scouting team beat the bushes looking for eligible but undrafted monsters in places like kill for a sammich U, Hairy palms Community College or Mississippi/Alabama Institute for wayward men. Did you know that possibly the greatest OL man in the teams history was a walk-on?

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

OK let me ask you a simple question. YOu have to chose between two options.

Option one, you get Mike Vick for 3 1st and a 2nd round pick

Option two you get Alex Smith or one of the other none elite, but above average solid QBs for a single 1st rounder

Which do you choose?? And dont get me wrong, I was all for trading up to get a franchise QB. But from the moment his name came into the picture I saw more of Vick than Manning in RG3. As i said to Skinsdad.... Simple math RG3-RO=JC2.0

Now maybe he will prove me wrong, but the number of running QBs to successfully transition to pocket passers in the past 20 years of NFL can be counted in the single digits.

As you pimp Smith I need to point out that the Niners stuck with Smith for 5 terrible seasons before he turned into a decent QB. They stuck with him when Niner fans like you were no doubt screaming for the backup, a guy who is now probably coaching the JV team in Huntsville.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

kill for a sammich U

I like that line a lot.

 

[skinsdad62]

shark is a master of revisionist history . he bitches about me arguing vehemently for JC . he leaves out my position was that he was an avg qb and if we built up our LOS we could win with that. he also forgets , as others do that i said we should have built up the LOS and stop gapped JC until the LOS is fixed then get the qb . BUT , my position was i thought he was HOF material in their eyes because its argued for days

they argue vehemently for thier point of view in the JC matter forcing my hand and want to say i am a blind homer when they cant grasp simple concepts

it is now weds. and we are still hearing about an avg performance and how he is the sole blame

then we get posters who bring up DEBUNKED CSI CRAP and pass it off as fact

i have put up KC's stats , there isnt a comparison to even his bad season yet the excuse train runs wild with them but defend RG3 and its an EXCUSE

this "franchise qb " BS is just another pile of crap . when you gut drafts to get qb's you take the chance of getting a sanchez or bradford . that is why you dont do that . i was against that move too as i was against the DMAC move but that is lost in the BS of this debate and the tactics being used

the difference is i supported the guy and didnt whine at the price i also didnt come in thinking this guy would ride in here on his white horse a sweep us to 2 straight superbowl titles and a new football stadium

RG3 isnt a franchise qb . he wasnt day one nor is he now why ? that gets determined over time right now he is struggling as is eli manning in new york with a new offense

and for god's sake its on game . you really thing we will avg 6 points a game for the year ? you really think the defense will only give up 10 ? that is stupid

the guy is beginning year 3 . after this season i will either say , give him some more time if he improves or stopp gap him until we fix the LOS . but i will have to defend that to the end of time and years later my position will be distorted yet again

 

[Sharkinva]

Well obviously I'll take the Smith. But revisionist history is too convenient. It's easy to look back now and make that call. But you seem Hell bent on proclaiming RGIII Michael Vick 2.0 and I'm not ready to do that just yet. And I'm sure not ready to bench him for Gus Frerotte 2.0 as you have been suggesting. Michael Vick struggled with accuracy his entire career. This has not been the case with Griffin, he hit's what he's throwing at and that is a huge distinction.

If I had to guess I'd say Griffin ends up in the Cutler/Randall Cunningham neighborhood. What I mean is he will show spectacularly at times but in the end may not be good enough. I would not have said that a year ago but I too can't dismiss what we are seeing. With that said Bears fans are sure a lot happer with Cutler than the clowns they've been trotting out year after year. Finally they have hope. And that's how I feel about Griffin. And again you are using revisionist history even if you had liked Tannehill on draft day. One of these picks could have just as easily been Jake Locker, Gabbert or Ponder. Let's not ever forget that.

Actually we traded away from GAbbert to get Kerrigan. Also Locker and Ponder were taken in drafts before we took RG3. So reality history is, we had a shot at getting Tannehill, or even Wilson. The team CHOOSE to trade all those picks for Griffin. And i dare say Bears fans would be livid if they had given up for Cutler what we gave up for Griffin.

What we should know right now is this, without the threat of him taking off running, Griffins game is pretty average. Now could that improve?? Sure it could. But like I said, the kind of change he is trying to make doesnt happen much. And thats not even taking into account what we gave up to get him.

 

[Sharkinva]

An Skinsdad is the master of the mantra... dont raise the bar, lower expectations. Which is basically what he has said about every QB we have debated about.

 

[j_y19]

shark is a master of revisionist history . he bitches about me arguing vehemently for JC . he leaves out my position was that he was an avg qb and if we built up our LOS we could win with that. he also forgets , as others do that i said we should have built up the LOS and stop gapped JC until the LOS is fixed then get the qb . BUT , my position was i thought he was HOF material in their eyes because its argued for days

they argue vehemently for thier point of view in the JC matter forcing my hand and want to say i am a blind homer when they cant grasp simple concepts

it is now weds. and we are still hearing about an avg performance and how he is the sole blame

then we get posters who bring up DEBUNKED CSI CRAP and pass it off as fact

i have put up KC's stats , there isnt a comparison to even his bad season yet the excuse train runs wild with them but defend RG3 and its an EXCUSE

this "franchise qb " BS is just another pile of crap . when you gut drafts to get qb's you take the chance of getting a sanchez or bradford . that is why you dont do that . i was against that move too as i was against the DMAC move but that is lost in the BS of this debate and the tactics being used

the difference is i supported the guy and didnt whine at the price i also didnt come in thinking this guy would ride in here on his white horse a sweep us to 2 straight superbowl titles and a new football stadium

RG3 isnt a franchise qb . he wasnt day one nor is he now why ? that gets determined over time right now he is struggling as is eli manning in new york with a new offense

and for god's sake its on game . you really thing we will avg 6 points a game for the year ? you really think the defense will only give up 10 ? that is stupid

the guy is beginning year 3 . after this season i will either say , give him some more time if he improves or stopp gap him until we fix the LOS . but i will have to defend that to the end of time and years later my position will be distorted yet again

Dad, you crack me up. You continually claim that you "debunked" the CSI stuff. Well, only in your mind was in debunked. You didn't show me anything that I deemed credible to change my opinion on RG3s actions after that first season that has caused so much consternation. Clearly I'm not alone in that position as many still express concern over RG3, his actions (or his team), and his lack of accepting responsibility for anything related to last year's debacle, including his on the field performance. Just because you say it doesn't make it so for the rest of us.........

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad, you crack me up. You continually claim that you "debunked" the CSI stuff. Well, only in your mind was in debunked. You didn't show me anything that I deemed credible to change my opinion on RG3s actions after that first season that has caused so much consternation. Clearly I'm not alone in that position as many still express concern over RG3, his actions (or his team), and his lack of accepting responsibility for anything related to last year's debacle, including his on the field performance. Just because you say it doesn't make it so for the rest of us.........

half the time you dont look at it anyway i have posted numerous things about the snyder and the lunch the briles BS the teammates hate him BS and i posted Rg3 interview with seth davis which tellsRg3 's side . did you look at that ? and after i am done answering you on this i will post another interview today which talks about pocket passing and if he doesnt run running plays anymore and that will debunk yet another accusation

 

[skinsdad62]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmeDDYHiMrw

here is said interview in which Rg3 addresses running and pocket passing

now J-y 19 , shark , blunt , GK and the rest , watch the interview , he clearly states he will run more running plays if that is what the coach wants

he also states that he doesnt want to be a pocket passer just to be a pocket passer or qb

my take . gruden says he wanted to get away from the read option play and they are doing it

if you ask vick , kaep wilson cunnungham etc all those running qbs will state "i want to be more of a pocket passer" because they feel being labeled a running qb is derogatory

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Dad, you crack me up. You continually claim that you "debunked" the CSI stuff. Well, only in your mind was in debunked. You didn't show me anything that I deemed credible to change my opinion on RG3s actions after that first season that has caused so much consternation. Clearly I'm not alone in that position as many still express concern over RG3, his actions (or his team), and his lack of accepting responsibility for anything related to last year's debacle, including his on the field performance. Just because you say it doesn't make it so for the rest of us.........

Yeah my bad, I should have realized those QBs were taken a year earlier.

With that said would you mind addressing my point about the Niners giving Alex Smith a full five years before passing judgement?

 

[Sharkinva]

Yeah my bad, I should have realized those QBs were taken a year earlier.

With that said would you mind addressing my point about the Niners giving Alex Smith a full five years before passing judgement?

I will take a swing at that one.

1. The coach who drafted Smith was fired, and the new coach coming in did draft his replacement and stopgapped Smith.

2. And I know this is a sore subject, but face facts. When you invest as much as we did in a player, you are not expecting to get a 5 year project.

3. For every Alex Smith Experiment you have a Jimmy Clausen, Brandon Weedon, Jamarcus Russell where a team realizes they made a mistake and moves on quickly. Im not calling for Griffin to be benched and shipped offthis second. But if the best we get out of him this year is average, and this team is still in the 3-13 range, barring some serious production from him that says otherwise, you have atleast got to consider an open competition.