How dumb is it to say that Manning choked?

[TheRangerDude]

Working under this theory there would be no need for a HOF or any individual awards/records. Since everything on the field is team oriented then how can we possibly laud the accomplishments of one player in his career when he had so much help. I mean Jerry Rice didnt catch all those passes himself, Dan Marino didnt throw for all those years on his own, Walter Paytons rushing yards are a sham as they came within the team concept, Peyton didnt actually win 5 MVP's, his teams did. I understand your point, I get it but thats not how players in ANY era have been judged. They are judged on THEIR numbers and whether they win or not. Your concept is nice and all but its not how any sport actually works. Hell you can apply the same logic to basketball, baseball, hockey whatever. Just get rid of individuals in the HOF and vote in teams if thats how we want it.

You are oversimplifying what I said. I am talking about wins and losses, players can still have individual stats for things they actually earn more individually such as yards, TDS, receptions, act. This is why both the QB and the WR are awarded yards for the pass or even the TD… because they do it together. And for wins and losses… the whole team does that together.

O-Lineman unfortunately get overlooked a ton as far as stats go though. They do a ton more than they get credit for.

 

[NEhomer]

Where was all this it's-a-team-win-and-loss horseshit two weeks ago while all the Manning>>>>>>>>Brady threads popped up like weeds?!

 

[sonnyblack65]

Russel's passer rating was 50 points higher than Peytons 123/73 no sophmore jinx for this kid

 

[sonnyblack65]

You are oversimplifying what I said. I am talking about wins and losses, players can still have individual stats for things they actually earn more individually such as yards, TDS, receptions, act. This is why both the QB and the WR are awarded yards for the pass or even the TD… because they do it together. And for wins and losses… the whole team does that together.

O-Lineman unfortunately get overlooked a ton as far as stats go though. They do a ton more than they get credit for.

That o-line gave up the least amount of sacks all year and it wasnt even close. Last night against that great Seattle D they still gave up 0 Pats 07 loss Giants sacked Brady I believed 6 times

 

[NEhomer]

Good point one of the NFL channel guys made about the entire line moving perfectly at once on the muffed opening snap. They weren't waiting for another call from Peyton because the snap was correct, it was Peyton who fucked it up.

 

[HammerDown]

Hatriots fans gloating in these threads is truly beyond belief. I've never seen anything like these fans. They never cease to amaze me.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

This is my reaction to those who based off of one game, an important game, but one single game want to trash Peyton Manning. This thread is nowhere to be found had Peyton won last night. Reactionary fodder.

 

[WizardHawk]

What isn't being talked about at all is not only how the players dominated in this game over Denver, but clearly the coaching did as well. Denver was out coached on both sides of the ball to an embarrassing extent.

After the game Wagner said they had studied a lot of film on Denver's offense and figured out their trends not only on play calling, but when 'omaha' really means something and when it doesn't. They said they figured out when his change of play at the line is actually fake and when it wasn't. They then implemented their own change of play signs. They used it to absolute BRILLIANCE to keep that offense on its heels the entire game. In sort, Seattle out adjusted the adjustment king. That's coaching. Denver did nothing to change their tendencies and Seattle used it against them.

I'm sure some of you will still blame the line adjustments on Manning, but he did what they practiced and what their offense was designed to do. While so many other defenses try to disguise their looks, Seattle did no such thing. They simply used their own fake/not fake play call change at the line against them.

I haven't seen the final stats, but I know Manning was hurried, knocked down, and flushed out way more than I had ever seen him at any point this season. I'm not sure how anyone expects a QB to perform when their line suddenly falls apart. I saw several plays where he didn't even have time to look for his first read before someone was on him.

Receivers? Dropping passes and fumbling balls. Can't win many games when you are throwing to that.

There is plenty of blame to go around and Manning wasn't perfect, but the rest of his team really let him down.

 

[JDM]

The only sat that resembles that on that site is QBrec. And the definition of that stat is TEAM record in games started by this QB. Note again the word team but also its worth noting that this is an unofficial stat.

It is absolutely official, and every announcer/commentator there is references it on a regular basis.

 

[NinerSickness]

Hatriots fans gloating in these threads is truly beyond belief. I've never seen anything like these fans. They never cease to amaze me.

Oh like you wouldn't be gloating in this thread if Denver won. Right?

I even said here on SportsHoopla that Peyton "absolutely" would lose the choker stigma if he won the SB. But, as usual, he sucked in the at the most crucial time.

Peyton Manning: great when the pressure is off.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

What isn't being talked about at all is not only how the players dominated in this game over Denver, but clearly the coaching did as well. Denver was out coached on both sides of the ball to an embarrassing extent.

After the game Wagner said they had studied a lot of film on Denver's offense and figured out their trends not only on play calling, but when 'omaha' really means something and when it doesn't. They said they figured out when his change of play at the line is actually fake and when it wasn't. They then implemented their own change of play signs. They used it to absolute BRILLIANCE to keep that offense on its heels the entire game. In sort, Seattle out adjusted the adjustment king. That's coaching. Denver did nothing to change their tendencies and Seattle used it against them.

I'm sure some of you will still blame the line adjustments on Manning, but he did what they practiced and what their offense was designed to do. While so many other defenses try to disguise their looks, Seattle did no such thing. They simply used their own fake/not fake play call change at the line against them.

I haven't seen the final stats, but I know Manning was hurried, knocked down, and flushed out way more than I had ever seen him at any point this season. I'm not sure how anyone expects a QB to perform when their line suddenly falls apart. I saw several plays where he didn't even have time to look for his first read before someone was on him.

Receivers? Dropping passes and fumbling balls. Can't win many games when you are throwing to that.

There is plenty of blame to go around and Manning wasn't perfect, but the rest of his team really let him down.

Well, hello there, reasonable poster.

 

[NEhomer]

Hammer, where's the Manning avi you sported all week? The AFCCG is all you got left?

 

[Doublejive]

What isn't being talked about at all is not only how the players dominated in this game over Denver, but clearly the coaching did as well. Denver was out coached on both sides of the ball to an embarrassing extent.

After the game Wagner said they had studied a lot of film on Denver's offense and figured out their trends not only on play calling, but when 'omaha' really means something and when it doesn't. They said they figured out when his change of play at the line is actually fake and when it wasn't. They then implemented their own change of play signs. They used it to absolute BRILLIANCE to keep that offense on its heels the entire game. In sort, Seattle out adjusted the adjustment king. That's coaching. Denver did nothing to change their tendencies and Seattle used it against them.

I'm sure some of you will still blame the line adjustments on Manning, but he did what they practiced and what their offense was designed to do. While so many other defenses try to disguise their looks, Seattle did no such thing. They simply used their own fake/not fake play call change at the line against them.

I haven't seen the final stats, but I know Manning was hurried, knocked down, and flushed out way more than I had ever seen him at any point this season. I'm not sure how anyone expects a QB to perform when their line suddenly falls apart. I saw several plays where he didn't even have time to look for his first read before someone was on him.

Receivers? Dropping passes and fumbling balls. Can't win many games when you are throwing to that.

There is plenty of blame to go around and Manning wasn't perfect, but the rest of his team really let him down.

What was also shocking what Wagner said is how the Bronco's never changed anything even after it was very clear what they were doing was not working.

It kinda say's their offense was very one dimensional and Manning being either too stubborn or just plain lack of developing anything else imo.

 

[TheRangerDude]

It is absolutely official, and every announcer/commentator there is references it on a regular basis.

That doesn't make it an official stat. By official I am referring stats gathered and reported by the NFL's Chief Statistician for each game. Recording a W or an L for a QB is not in the Chief Statistician's job description nor are they even provided with fields to enter such data.

Here I will put it in a different way. Would you say that in every game that you have ever watched, the game was decided by the play of the QB? Sure good QBs can win you some games and they can lose you some games but they can't do it if the people around them don't make plays. Also, sometimes the QB can play horrible and the team can still win because of a good run game and/or defense. Does the QB deserve a win for these type of games? This is where one of the issues lies with giving QBs W's and L's. Giving a QB a win in such situation creates a statistical fallacy as now the QB gets credit for something when in fact it that credit belongs to someone else. Note that in this situation, the stat wouldn't even be measuring what it is intended to be measuring. Basically, this type of stat would create an unfair situation in which one persons stats are not compatible to anthers stats because of all the uncommon variables (all of the different team members from all of the different teams- not to mention situations). Also, what do you do if one QB played 2 quarters and then gets hurt and the back up plays the other two. Who gets the win or loss for that game? This sort of stat is open ended and arbitrary. Thats why you ask a lot of baseball geeks, they will tell W and L's for pitchers is BS but they are actually a official stat in the MLB.

What it comes down to is you can call it a stat if you want but it really doesn't measure what it intends to, so it is sort of silly to reference. It's like trying to measuring time with a ruler.

 

[WizardHawk]

What was also shocking what Wagner said is how the Bronco's never changed anything even after it was very clear what they were doing was not working.

It kinda say's their offense was very one dimensional and Manning being either too stubborn or just plain lack of developing anything else imo.

He doesn't call the plays. He does normally have the option to change a play, but it is on the coaches to change up how they are doing things if they are not fooling the other team.

I'd say it is clear that fox was WAY out coached in this game and clearly his staff did not make the in game adjustments necessary to get back in the game.

 

[Mondio]

What's most surprising is people think this means anything. They could have made every adjustment in the book, seattle wasn't having any of it.

Seriously, he had no time to let a play develop the entire game except for maybe a couple plays and every short pass had defenders all just waiting to pounce. How do you throw long when you're under that much pressure from a standard 4 man rush? How do you gain yac when defenders are swarming like seattle was? How do you run the ball when you're averaging like a yard and a half per carry? Every screen pass was caught from behind. The broncos got their ass kicked on the offensive line. Their d did ok for a while stopping the run but couldn't get off the field on 3 rd down and it took its toll.

But when your offensive line is greeting mauled like Denver's was, exactly what changes were thy supposed to make?

 

[WizardHawk]

Ask Seattle about that. We had line issues all year. There are ways to shake up protections. I guess by your logic they should have just stayed in the locker room at half time. I mean if they were that out classed and there was nothing they could do about it why even bother?

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

What was also shocking what Wagner said is how the Bronco's never changed anything even after it was very clear what they were doing was not working.

It kinda say's their offense was very one dimensional and Manning being either too stubborn or just plain lack of developing anything else imo.

I think that speaks to the coaching as Wizard has said. I've never been a huge John Fox fan and I think him and the offensive coaches on that team have basically just road the coat tails of Manning the last two years. Adjustments of some sort needed to be made but I doubt it would have helped. The receivers weren't getting open at all and showed little fight. And even if they came out of halftime with any new life, the KO return by Harvin sucked the life right out of them.

 

[Mondio]

Yeah that was my point lol

You think they didnt try draws, screens, keeping backs in to block, te's staying in to block? What plays were they going to run that would have brought more success when they were getting g destroyed up front? And when they did move it some, they just turned it over anyway. You tell me what they should have done differently and why it would have made a difference when they couldn't even slow down th dline let alone win some of those battles.

 

[Doublejive]

He doesn't call the plays. He does normally have the option to change a play, but it is on the coaches to change up how they are doing things if they are not fooling the other team.

I'd say it is clear that fox was WAY out coached in this game and clearly his staff did not make the in game adjustments necessary to get back in the game.

You are reading more into it maybe i should of been more accurate,the Brady's Manning's have enough sway to get things changed at half time,the snapshot's from the booth to the OC guys is one thing but the QB on the field see's and hears things they do not.

I bet we all can agree on that.