To the LeBron haters

[True Lakers Fan]

How can you, in 1 breath compare LeBron to MJ and say they are statistically a wash, then in the next day you aren't sure if he is better than a long list of players like Walton and Stockton?

MJ is universally considered to be the GOAT. If LeBron is close to him, then he best be at least in your top 5.

The championships 6-3 puts MJ way ahead of LJ and is the deciding factor that affects the outcome

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Between 8-10.

I was just answering MSG's question. You have stated your case before.

Nope, try again.

I see making assumptions is a very strong trait of yours.

 

[flyerhawk]

Regarding MJ not making the Finals 9 times in his career - is that a stat that is kept on EVERY player? No. You know why? Because EVERY player in the league has not made the playoffs and also not made the Finals. So, lets stick to what makes sense here - which is all time greats & how they've fared when playing on the big stage, when all the marbles are on the table.

The only time I ever hear people talk about winning percentage in the final is when people are comparing LBJ to MJ.

I just don't get it sometimes. On one hand people want to argue that he's a top 3 player of all time, but then when debates like this come about all of a sudden he's being unfairly judged - even though it's the exact same way other great players are/haven been judged. LBJ seems to be the only player that can be given all the glory when his team wins but somehow off the hook when he loses. Can't have it both ways.

Bullshit. I have NEVER heard someone argue that winning percentage in the finals defined greatness until Lebron James entered the conversation. Never heard anyone say that Wilt was less amazing because he was 2-4 in the finals.

I've repeatedly said that there are many different ways to measure greatness and that each one is perfectly valid. EXCEPT the one argument that many here seem to singularly focus on, people that continually express their dislike of Lebron James. And when others say that the argument that finals winning percentage matters is specious those same people ALWAYS engage in ad hominen attacks of "Why do you Lebron nut huggers always look for excuses for him". It's ridiculous especially since I'm neither a Lebron fan or hater. I admire his talent but I honestly don't care whether he is considered the GOAT or not.

 

[tlance]

The only time I ever hear people talk about winning percentage in the final is when people are comparing LBJ to MJ.



Bullshit. I have NEVER heard someone argue that winning percentage in the finals defined greatness until Lebron James entered the conversation. Never heard anyone say that Wilt was less amazing because he was 2-4 in the finals.

I've repeatedly said that there are many different ways to measure greatness and that each one is perfectly valid. EXCEPT the one argument that many here seem to singularly focus on, people that continually express their dislike of Lebron James. And when others say that the argument that finals winning percentage matters is specious those same people ALWAYS engage in ad hominen attacks of "Why do you Lebron nut huggers always look for excuses for him". It's ridiculous especially since I'm neither a Lebron fan or hater. I admire his talent but I honestly don't care whether he is considered the GOAT or not.

Bingo.

The reason you hear that is because it is literally the only way to justify an all time ranking outside the top 5. He is a generational talent. The list of players who have enjoyed longer runs as the best player in the league is extremely short, and it is arguably non-existent.

 

[flyerhawk]

I talk about play across a series and you want to try to use 1 game to try and prove something? Kareem played very well. He didn't have to be great in that one game because James Worthy went nuts in that game. It was the game where he got the "Big Game James" nickname.

To be fair, by that point (40 years old) Kareem was more of a role player, but he was a damn good one. lol

I was referring to his last series. Sorry if that was unclear. That was his stat line in the finals overall.

 

[flyerhawk]

Bingo.

The reason you hear that is because it is literally the only way to justify an all time ranking outside the top 5. He is a generational talent. The list of players who have enjoyed longer runs as the best player in the league is extremely short, and it is arguably non-existent.

And the people that use the argument use it as a trump card in every single debate. Talk about Lebron being in 9 finals? Check the winning percentage in the finals. Talk about how he took essentially 3 different teams to the finals? Check the winning percentage in the finals. Talk about his absolutely ungodly stat line? Check the winning percentage in the finals.

Not all of them do that. But the really virulent Lebron haters do that every time.

 

[msgkings322]

The only time I ever hear people talk about winning percentage in the final is when people are comparing LBJ to MJ.



Bullshit. I have NEVER heard someone argue that winning percentage in the finals defined greatness until Lebron James entered the conversation. Never heard anyone say that Wilt was less amazing because he was 2-4 in the finals.

I've repeatedly said that there are many different ways to measure greatness and that each one is perfectly valid. EXCEPT the one argument that many here seem to singularly focus on, people that continually express their dislike of Lebron James. And when others say that the argument that finals winning percentage matters is specious those same people ALWAYS engage in ad hominen attacks of "Why do you Lebron nut huggers always look for excuses for him". It's ridiculous especially since I'm neither a Lebron fan or hater. I admire his talent but I honestly don't care whether he is considered the GOAT or not.

Also, and this is the other strawman that keeps getting brought up, those of us who recognize how great LeBron is (top 5 easy) ALL STILL AGREE MJ IS GOAT. LeBron is not. MJ is. But LeBron is top 5 and there's no other way to see it backed up by any logic. Only hating the guy himself.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Also, and this is the other strawman that keeps getting brought up, those of us who recognize how great LeBron is (top 5 easy) ALL STILL AGREE MJ IS GOAT. LeBron is not. MJ is. But LeBron is top 5 and there's no other way to see it backed up by any logic. Only hating the guy himself.

So anyone who picks him outside of the top 5 is wrong?

 

[Black Adam]

So anyone who picks him outside of the top 5 is wrong?

no, because it's unfair to the poor fella...

he can only be judged "fairly" by those that love him, don't ya know...?

honestly, i have him in there, but i don't have to bow down and worship him to do that...

 

[msgkings322]

So anyone who picks him outside of the top 5 is wrong?

Well it's all just opinions, but yeah in my opinion it would be wrong. I have yet to see a good argument why LeBron the individual player, with his resume as a player, is any worse than top 5.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Well it's all just opinions, but yeah in my opinion it would be wrong. I have yet to see a good argument why LeBron the individual player, with his resume as a player, is any worse than top 5.

Because we're remembering lebron as the player he is now. He hasn't gone through his twilight years yet.

If Kareem's career had stopped in 1980, he'd be the best player we'd ever seen. If Kobe's career had ended in 2012, he'd be on everyone's top 5 list.

Let's wait till lebron retires before we judge others for not having him in their top 5.

 

[msgkings322]

Because we're remembering lebron as the player he is now. He hasn't gone through his twilight years yet.

If Kareem's career had stopped in 1980, he'd be the best player we'd ever seen. If Kobe's career had ended in 2012, he'd be on everyone's top 5 list.

Let's wait till lebron retires before we judge others for not having him in their top 5.

Wait that makes even less sense. No one has MJ or KAJ any lower than top 1 or top 3 because of their last old years. LeBron is a generational talent. If you are a fan of the game of basketball, you are privileged to be able to watch him do things no other player has ever done. No one has ever had his combination of speed, size, smarts, passing, defense, shooting, all of it. In 30 years people will be like 'wow you got to watch him play?'. Just like kids today wish they could have watched MJ play, or Magic, or hell Wilt.

Every year LeBron keeps playing at a high level actually ADDS to his legacy, because he has already played more years as the dominant player in the league than MJ.

And this has nothing to do with titles. I really wish I could have watched Pete Maravich play, I consider him a top 50 all time player and he didn't win a damned thing. Neither did Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Wait that makes even less sense. No one has MJ or KAJ any lower than top 1 or top 3 because of their last old years. LeBron is a generational talent. If you are a fan of the game of basketball, you are privileged to be able to watch him do things no other player has ever done. No one has ever had his combination of speed, size, smarts, passing, defense, shooting, all of it. In 30 years people will be like 'wow you got to watch him play?'. Just like kids today wish they could have watched MJ play, or Magic, or hell Wilt.

Every year LeBron keeps playing at a high level actually ADDS to his legacy, because he has already played more years as the dominant player in the league than MJ.

And this has nothing to do with titles. I really wish I could have watched Pete Maravich play, I consider him a top 50 all time player and he didn't win a damned thing. Neither did Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc.

Agree or disagree, if Kareem had retired in 1980, he'd be the best player ever seen?

 

[tlance]

Because we're remembering lebron as the player he is now. He hasn't gone through his twilight years yet.

If Kareem's career had stopped in 1980, he'd be the best player we'd ever seen. If Kobe's career had ended in 2012, he'd be on everyone's top 5 list.

Let's wait till lebron retires before we judge others for not having him in their top 5.

No, Kareem would have only had 2 rings if his career ended in 1980. The second of which he wasn't even Finals MVP. And no, Kobe would not be on most people's top 5 if his career ended in 2012. Sorry, just not true. There might be a few Kobe lovers that would make that case, but the vast majority would have him ranked exactly where they have him now. Between 7-10. Kobe only won 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVPs. He just doesn't match up with leBron in terms of overall stats and elite accolades.

LeBron will decline at some point. MJ's stint in Washington didn't hurt his legacy 1 bit. Nor should it. LeBron's twilight will only further enhance his legacy as he continues to move up a variety of all time lists.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Because we're remembering lebron as the player he is now. He hasn't gone through his twilight years yet.

If Kareem's career had stopped in 1980, he'd be the best player we'd ever seen. If Kobe's career had ended in 2012, he'd be on everyone's top 5 list.

Let's wait till lebron retires before we judge others for not having him in their top 5.

Even with that take a look at his numbers

Kareem Abdul Jabaar 24.3 ppg 10.5 rpg 3.2 apg
Wilt Chamberlin 30 ppg 18 rpg 2.5 apg
Michael Jordan 30 ppg 6.2 rpg 5.3 apg
Jerry West 27 ppg 5.8 rpg 6.7 apg
Kobe Bryant 25. ppg 5.2 rpg 4.7 apg
Oscar Robertson 25.7 ppg 7.5 rpg 9.5 apg
Shaq Oneal 24 ppg 10.9 rpg 2.5 apg
David Robinson 21.1 ppg 10.6 rpg 2.5 apg

LeBron James 27 ppg 8.2 rpg 9.0 apg

LeBron has some impressive stats though that add up - No question about, but I just don't see how you can put him in the top five. For me

Wilt Chamberlin
Michael Jordan
Kareem A Jabaar
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
David Robinson
LeBron James -I expect LeBron to end up between 4 and 6 when his career is finished though.

 

[msgkings322]

Agree or disagree, if Kareem had retired in 1980, he'd be the best player ever seen?

No because he wouldn't be top of the list in all those stats and he'd have far fewer rings. Are you arguing otherwise?

 

[tlance]

Even with that take a look at his numbers

Kareem Abdul Jabaar 24.3 ppg 10.5 rpg 3.2 apg
Wilt Chamberlin 30 ppg 18 rpg 2.5 apg
Michael Jordan 30 ppg 6.2 rpg 5.3 apg
Jerry West 27 ppg 5.8 rpg 6.7 apg
Kobe Bryant 25. ppg 5.2 rpg 4.7 apg
Oscar Robertson 25.7 ppg 7.5 rpg 9.5 apg
Shaq Oneal 24 ppg 10.9 rpg 2.5 apg
David Robinson 21.1 ppg 10.6 rpg 2.5 apg

LeBron James 27 ppg 8.2 rpg 9.0 apg

LeBron has some impressive stats though that add up - No question about, but I just don't see how you can put him in the top five. For me

Wilt Chamberlin
Michael Jordan
Kareem A Jabaar
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
David Robinson
LeBron James -I expect LeBron to end up between 4 and 6 when his career is finished though.

I am looking at the numbers. LeBron's pop off the page like no other outside of Wilt, MJ and O. That is before even considering efficiency or era. LeBron's jumps off there too.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

From what I am seeing in the all time greatests ever though on the internet - the championships total is the biggest factor - Tim Duncan considered one them and imo only because he has five titles - his stats aren't that impressive and in fact neither were Larry Bird's or Bill Waltons who averages

Bill 13.3 ppg 10.5 3.4 apg
Larry 13.4 ppg 7.9 6.3

Obviously what they did on the defensive end and the # of titles is what has put them over into the top which then causes the LeBron Supporter's argument based on stats to fail. They say titles are irrelevant, but they obviously are relevant by the experts

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

No because he wouldn't be top of the list in all those stats and he'd have far fewer rings. Are you arguing otherwise?

Yep. Kareem in his first 10-12 years in the league is the best player i've ever seen. 6 MVPs and 2 championships too.

 

[msgkings322]

Yep. Kareem in his first 10-12 years in the league is the best player i've ever seen. 6 MVPs and 2 championships too.

So better than MJ?