When will Lebron pass Jordan?

[desert heat]

I stopped reading your comment after you said kareem was a better scorer. How do you figure? MJ led the league in scoring 9 times. Kareem twice. MJ averaged @ least 28.0 ppg 11 times. Kareem 5 times. And then there's that thing about MJ averaging more ppg (30.1) than anyone that's ever played the game.

kareem is the leading scorer in nba history, and the sky hook is the most unstoppable shot in nba history. jordan just took more shots and anyone who even breathed on him got called.

 

[Wamu]

kareem is the leading scorer in nba history, and the sky hook is the most unstoppable shot in nba history. jordan just took more shots and anyone who even breathed on him got called.

Kareem also played longer than MJ. But just ignore the fact that nobody has averaged more ppg than MJ.

 

[desert heat]

Kareem also played longer than MJ. But just ignore the fact that nobody has averaged more ppg than MJ.

really ever heard of wilt chamberlain? how many 50 points games did jordan have? chamberlain had 118.

just ignore that jordan took more shots, and the sky hook was the most unstoppable ever.

jabbar 3 titles in college, 6 in the nba.....=9.

jordan needed worthy and perkins to carry him at north carolina.

 

[Wamu]

really ever heard of wilt chamberlain? how many 50 points games did jordan have? chamberlain had 118.

just ignore that jordan took more shots, and the sky hook was the most unstoppable ever.

jabbar 3 titles in college, 6 in the nba.....=9.

jordan needed worthy and perkins to carry him at north carolina.

Hey don't forget to mention what Kareem did in high school & junior high. It's relevant to the conversation.

 

[desert heat]

Hey don't forget to mention what Kareem did in high school & junior high. It's relevant to the conversation.

right, jordan gets smoked, so it don't count.

career fg% kareem .558, jordan .497

interesting that even though kareem attempted 4000 more fg's than jordan, jordan still made 500 more points from the free throw line.

 

[Wamu]

jordan needed worthy and perkins to carry him at north carolina.

Oh bullshit. During the '82 title season Worthy averaged 14.2 ppg. Perkins averaged 14.3 & MJ average 13.5. So Worthy & Perkins carried MJ in '82 when their ppg averages weren't even point apart? Okay, if you say so.

 

[desert heat]

Oh bullshit. During the '82 title season Worthy averaged 14.2 ppg. Perkins averaged 14.3 & MJ average 13.5. So Worthy & Perkins "carried" MJ in '82 when their ppg averages weren't even point apart? Okay, if you say so.

worthy was the college player of the year in 82. jordan never won another championship at nc, despite being surrounded by a host of stars.

 

[Wamu]

worthy was the college player of the year in 82. jordan never won another championship at nc, despite being surrounded by a host of stars.

Interesting considering Ralph Sampson was the Naismith POY in '82. And in '82 Sampson won the AP, Rupp, Wooden & Roberston awards. So exactly which college player of the year award did Worthy win in '82? Oh yeah & in '82 Sampson was the ACC player of the year.

 

[trojanfan12]

There are compelling arguments, IMO, for MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, or Lebron being the GOAT.

I think anyone outside of that list of players is a pretty huge reach. Maybe Oscar Robertson?

Oscar and Wilt are tough to include, imo.

The NBA changed so dramatically from the 50's - 70's to what it's been since the 80's.

To be completely fair, you probably have to have to divide it between the "old NBA" and the "modern NBA" and have a GOAT debate for each.

 

[desert heat]

Interesting considering Ralph Sampson was the Naismith POY in '82. And in '82 Sampson won the AP, Rupp, Wooden & Roberston awards. So exactly which college player of the year award did Worthy win in '82? Oh yeah & in '82 Sampson was the ACC player of the year.

A consensus first team All-American,[1] Worthy shared College Player of the Year honors with Virginia Cavalier Ralph Sampson.[2] The 1982 championship game against the Georgetown Hoyas is notable for Worthy's steal of a pass inadvertently thrown to him by the Hoyas' point guard Fred Brown, which sealed the Tar Heels' 63–62 victory. For the game, Worthy shot 13–17 from the field, scored 28 points and had 4 rebounds, capping a standout performance which won him the NCAA Basketball Tournament Most Outstanding Player.

In the NBA draft, Worthy was chosen first overall by the Los Angeles Lakers.

James Worthy

 

[desert heat]

Oscar and Wilt are tough to include, imo.

The NBA changed so dramatically from the 50's - 70's to what it's been since the 80's.

To be completely fair, you probably have to have to divide it between the "old NBA" and the "modern NBA" and have a GOAT debate for each.

which makes them even more incredible. imagine if they had the benefit of modern training techniques.

fyi-there were only 10-12 teams back in the 60's, not nearly as watered down as today.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Bosh didn't get out of the 1st round in Toronto. Love never made the playoffs in Minnesota. Do you even follow the NBA?

Clearly, the answer is no.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Well who started it now? Durant didn't. LeBron was the one starting the "Easy Way our" nonsense and takin the road of least resistance when he "took his talents to south beach" after getting taken out by a lower seed 2 straight years in the playoffs

You shouldn't give any player a pass if you truly believe that nonsense you're spewing......it's okay because others did it? That's like saying it's okay to cave to peer pressure.

 

[trojanfan12]

right, jordan gets smoked, so it don't count.

career fg% kareem .558, jordan .497

interesting that even though kareem attempted 4000 more fg's than jordan, jordan still made 500 more points from the free throw line.

I agree with much of what you say re: Kareem. Personally, I have him #2 all time behind MJ.

But I have to say that comparing field goal % between a center and a perimeter player is dubious at best.

.497 is damn good for a perimeter player. In fact, I'm no math genius, but I'd bet that if you could adjust for where on the floor the shots came from, MJ's adjusted FG% would be damn close to Kareems.

 

[handicappers]

Old NBA GOAT = Russell

Modern GOAT = LeBron

 

[desert heat]

I agree with much of what you say re: Kareem. Personally, I have him #2 all time behind MJ.

But I have to say that comparing field goal % between a center and a perimeter player is dubious at best.

.497 is damn good for a perimeter player. In fact, I'm no math genius, but I'd bet that if you could adjust for where on the floor the shots came from, MJ's adjusted FG% would be damn close to Kareems.

i can live with it being debatable, which it is. i just get a little tired of all the jordan worship.

personally, i think magic johnson is the greatest player of all time. basketball is a team sport, and magic was just the greatest team player of all time. he was winning championships and finals mvps at @20 years old.

 

[trojanfan12]

Well who started it now? Durant didn't. LeBron was the one starting the "Easy Way our" nonsense and takin the road of least resistance when he "took his talents to south beach" after getting taken out by a lower seed 2 straight years in the playoffs

This argument is pretty silly. I'm no Lebron fan, but let's not pretend he invented the concept of the "super team".

There have been super teams since at least the 80's. The only difference is that, back then, because free agency rules were different, super teams were mainly put together via a combination of the draft and trades.

The older guys like MJ etc. love to say things like "I didn't want to play with those guys, I wanted to beat them." But they didn't really have lot of choice back then. We honestly don't know what they would have done if they had the freedom that today's players have.

Maybe they would have stuck to that mantra? Or maybe they would have taken advantage of their freedom the same way today's players do? We'll never know because they didn't have the chance.

Personally, while I think that players should have the freedom they do today and I wouldn't want that freedom taken away...

I prefer the way it was back then because the limited movement is part of why you had real animosity between teams and players.

Nowadays, it feels like too much of a lovefest with guys not wanting to really go at each other because they might want to play together some day. lol

 

[trojanfan12]

which makes them even more incredible. imagine if they had the benefit of modern training techniques.

fyi-there were only 10-12 teams back in the 60's, not nearly as watered down as today.

True. However, you also have to consider that the pay back then was nothing compared to what it is today. Back then, most players had to have regular jobs in the off season and some talented players never played after college because they could make more in the "real world".

Modern training techniques would definitely have made a difference and would have allowed some of those players to play at or close to the level they played at back then, but for many, it likely wouldn't.

Guys like Wilt, Oscar and Elgin Baylor would probably perform at close to the level they did back then.

But a guy like Bill Russell is probably more like Al Horford and The Logo is probably more like JJ Reddick or maybe Klay Thompson at best. Still very good players, but not the legends they were in their era.

 

[flyerhawk]

Oscar and Wilt are tough to include, imo.

The NBA changed so dramatically from the 50's - 70's to what it's been since the 80's.

To be completely fair, you probably have to have to divide it between the "old NBA" and the "modern NBA" and have a GOAT debate for each.

I agree. I never saw them play. But they were both absolutely dominant players for their era.

I tend to measure players based on how they played in their era.

The training and conditioning today is VASTLY better than it was in the 80s much less the 60s. You drop Lebron into the 1990 Pistons and they are basically the best team in the history of basketball. The ONLY way teams could stop him would be to try to injure him. OTOH, if give Jordan or Kareem or Wilt modern training and conditioning and who knows what they could have done?

 

[trojanfan12]

i can live with it being debatable, which it is. i just get a little tired of all the jordan worship.

personally, i think magic johnson is the greatest player of all time. basketball is a team sport, and magic was just the greatest team player of all time. he was winning championships and finals mvps at @20 years old.

Yeah, I hear ya. It took me a lot of years to settle on MJ as GOAT. For years my top 3 alternated between MJ, Kareem and Magic.

I finally settled on MJ because, imo, everything is so close between the top 4 or 5 in history that you have to have a tiebreaker and for me, that tiebreaker is rings. MJ's 6 rings with zero finals losses is just too hard to argue against.

Plus, MJ was the alpha for all 6 of his titles while Kareem sat 2nd chair for at least 2 of his.