What's wrong with our defense ?

[boogiewithstu2007]

The problem with the simple scheme is that you need GREAT play from everyone involved. The reason that complicated schemes exist is to compensate for weaknesses, which usually just leads to other weaknesses.

Our cover 3 has done better statistically though this year... It's the cover 2 that's getting eaten alive... Even our man coverage is doing a better job than cover 2 ...

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

So Richard has gone rogue?

Not rogue, just doing things his way... He's the DC so he can run what he wants...

 

[dkmightyhammer]

The problem with the simple scheme is that you need GREAT play from everyone involved. The reason that complicated schemes exist is to compensate for weaknesses, which usually just leads to other weaknesses.

That's the thing though. Outside of a very small percentage of plays that have burned us the defense has been ok. Not smothering like past years, but still pretty good. In the Cincy game Dalton got us on 3 or 4 long plays which ultimately killed us. But that is 3 or 4 out of 44 attempts. Do we need to go to some complicated scheme to pass protect better on less than 10% of pass attempts? That might disrupt other areas of our defense that are working great now. Besides sometimes our competition's players just beat us and make great plays of their own. We are 6-5 and that is it, no getting around it, but we were literally soooo close to being 8-3 or 9-2 if just one or two things go our way in a couple games.

 

[SonnyCID]

It's easy to blame Richard because he's the new piece (as a primary coach) and if we're talking about discipline, we might be one to something. But as far as scheme changes, those are coming from Carrol, and is likely out of necessity. Actually, take the "likely" out of there, ET and Chancellor are not playing up their par on top of shitty corner play from #2.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

It's easy to blame Richard because he's the new piece (as a primary coach) and if we're talking about discipline, we might be one to something. But as far as scheme changes, those are coming from Carrol, and is likely out of necessity. Actually, take the "likely" out of there, ET and Chancellor are not playing up their par on top of shitty corner play from #2.

Proof is in the pudding... Richards comes in and we have way more defensive variations implemented... Pete does not call this defense, he's a coach that let's his coordinators do there jobs... This is on Richards ... Maxwell wasn't that good, ask Philly, he's been getting torched a lot this year...

 

[SonnyCID]

Not rogue, just doing things his way... He's the DC so he can run what he wants...

He can. But if it's not working Carroll can and does veto. Defensive playcalling does not change from the sideline play by play lIke it does in video games. Usually it's dictated by the players on the field depending on match ups and presnap movements. The sidelines send in plays before the offense is at the line of scrimmage, but then the players audible depending on how the offense shift. With veteran players who have seen everything in the book, assignments are on them more than anyone if the offense audibles.

 

[SonnyCID]

Proof is in the pudding... Richards comes in and we have way more defensive variations implemented... Pete does not call this defense, he's a coach that let's his coordinators do there jobs... This is on Richards ... Maxwell wasn't that good, ask Philly, he's been getting torched a lot this year...

Thomas and Chancellor are not playing as well as they have in previous years, that proof is also in the pudding. For that great c-1 or c-3 to work, they need DOMINANT safety play.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Thomas and Chancellor are not playing as well as they have in previous years, that proof is also in the pudding. For that great c-1 or c-3 to work, they need DOMINANT safety play.

Yeah but I wouldn't seal Thomas to one side of the field.. that's just stupid.... Let that guy roam like Griffey in the outfield.. I will agree though, Pete can veto anything, and at some point he needs too... As a defensive player you can be put in unfavorable match-ups from the DC ... Remember that Chicago game in the playoffs when Gus Bradley was our DC... We beat Chicago in Chicago earlier in the year sending pressure because everyone knows Cutler doesn't handle that well... then we met them in the playoffs, we didn't blitz ONCE .. We sat back in zone coverages getting picked apart all game long... After that game defensive players spouted there frustrations... A bad DC will derail you...

 

[chf]

That's the thing though. Outside of a very small percentage of plays that have burned us the defense has been ok. Not smothering like past years, but still pretty good. In the Cincy game Dalton got us on 3 or 4 long plays which ultimately killed us. But that is 3 or 4 out of 44 attempts. Do we need to go to some complicated scheme to pass protect better on less than 10% of pass attempts? That might disrupt other areas of our defense that are working great now. Besides sometimes our competition's players just beat us and make great plays of their own. We are 6-5 and that is it, no getting around it, but we were literally soooo close to being 8-3 or 9-2 if just one or two things go our way in a couple games.

To add to this, as I've pointed out ad nauseum, we've run into some QB's that were making simply perfect throws. Some of those Dalton throws, and some of Ben's, the coverage was actually pretty damned good. But a perfect throw beats good coverage.

And these weren't swing passes to the flat that were perfect, but DEEP throws.

It happens.

**not to say that our D hasn't struggled at times, it has.**

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

To add to this, as I've pointed out ad nauseum, we've run into some QB's that were making simply perfect throws. Some of those Dalton throws, and some of Ben's, the coverage was actually pretty damned good. But a perfect throw beats good coverage.

And these weren't swing passes to the flat that were perfect, but DEEP throws.

It happens.

**not to say that our D hasn't struggled at times, it has.**

Ok.. Sure we've faced good QB's... But let's be honest... If your not covering the receiver a high school QB can make some of those throws... We've left guy's WIDE open many times this year...

 

[FirebreathingMonkey]

To add to this, as I've pointed out ad nauseum, we've run into some QB's that were making simply perfect throws. Some of those Dalton throws, and some of Ben's, the coverage was actually pretty damned good. But a perfect throw beats good coverage.

And these weren't swing passes to the flat that were perfect, but DEEP throws.

It happens.

**not to say that our D hasn't struggled at times, it has.**

Yes Dalton and Newton both where making great throws but for me those two games came down to one play. Where the TE goes down the middle of the seam and gets behind Kam and the corners. And the things that still has me steaming was the fact they where WIDE OPEN in the endzone. Once was bad enough, but Dalton did it twice, to win that game. Fine, but to loose the next week on the same play from the panthers, No, that's on the coaching staff. How do you at not at least go over that in the film room or during practice so that everyone knows what to do on that play???

It told me they made no adjustments and worse all three times everyone was looking around going I thought you had him. I'm sure you can put some blame on Kam for not following his man but how can the DC coach allow it on back to back weeks?

 

[SonnyCID]

Yeah but I wouldn't seal Thomas to one side of the field.. that's just stupid.... Let that guy roam like Griffey in the outfield.. I will agree though, Pete can veto anything, and at some point he needs too... As a defensive player you can be put in unfavorable match-ups from the DC ... Remember that Chicago game in the playoffs when Gus Bradley was our DC... We beat Chicago in Chicago earlier in the year sending pressure because everyone knows Cutler doesn't handle that well... then we met them in the playoffs, we didn't blitz ONCE .. We sat back in zone coverages getting picked apart all game long... After that game defensive players spouted there frustrations... A bad DC will derail you...

Yes, you put a healthy Earl Thomas back there and he has the range to cover sideline to sideline deep, and a healthy Chancellor provides safety range from essentially a lb spot. But when those guys arent 100%, you cant just keep doing what youve always done and expect it to work like normal. And i dont cara what anyone says, those guys are not playing with their normal range. Receivers in space are not all that rare against this defense, only before the range and speed of the defenders could cover lots of ground with the ball in the air. But instead weve seen from them bad angles, missed tackles, and they seem to just be step slow. Not a lot, theyre still better than most, but missed time and surgeries have probably has an effect on them. Now, there are 2 plays that stand out for miscommunication, the Eifert TD and the Olson TD, but those are 2 isolated plays out of 100s. But the general struggles that they seem to be having, could be very well lack of range, especially the deep plays.

And this defense is Carrolls baby. Do you really think that he would let someone else take control of it and allow them to scheme themselves in to a 6-5 record without stepping in? I dont believe that for a second. Carroll is behind these schematic changes, and its likely out of necessity because the players are not having dominant years.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

That's what I'm seeing also, the safety's are just a little slower and it's making all the difference. My hope is that as the season moves forward so does their speed and health.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Yes, you put a healthy Earl Thomas back there and he has the range to cover sideline to sideline deep, and a healthy Chancellor provides safety range from essentially a lb spot. But when those guys arent 100%, you cant just keep doing what youve always done and expect it to work like normal. And i dont cara what anyone says, those guys are not playing with their normal range. Receivers in space are not all that rare against this defense, only before the range and speed of the defenders could cover lots of ground with the ball in the air. But instead weve seen from them bad angles, missed tackles, and they seem to just be step slow. Not a lot, theyre still better than most, but missed time and surgeries have probably has an effect on them. Now, there are 2 plays that stand out for miscommunication, the Eifert TD and the Olson TD, but those are 2 isolated plays out of 100s. But the general struggles that they seem to be having, could be very well lack of range, especially the deep plays.

And this defense is Carrolls baby. Do you really think that he would let someone else take control of it and allow them to scheme themselves in to a 6-5 record without stepping in? I dont believe that for a second. Carroll is behind these schematic changes, and its likely out of necessity because the players are not having dominant years.

I don't think so ... Pete let's his coordinators handle there jobs .. Were seeing the change in schemes because Richards has a different philosophy that he's implementing... Pete believes in letting coaches and players have there opportunity.... Do you think Quinn would have been targeted so quickly for a head coaching job if Pete made all the defensive play call's ? HELL NO.... Team owners and GM's targeted Quinn because our D was kicking ass and he was behind it calling the shots... This is on Richards and what Pete needs to do is step in .. SOON, he's let it go on long enough.... If he doesn't were done....

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

That's what I'm seeing also, the safety's are just a little slower and it's making all the difference. My hope is that as the season moves forward so does their speed and health.

Hmmmm... I"m a little skeptical thinking it's just injuries at this point... That would be a big deal obviously, but I think it's a little deeper than just injuries.. We've been blowing way to many coverages and it seem's like more of a mental thing than physical thing... So many giant holes in our coverages at the worst times...

 

[SonnyCID]

I don't think so ... Pete let's his coordinators handle there jobs .. Were seeing the change in schemes because Richards has a different philosophy that he's implementing... Pete believes in letting coaches and players have there opportunity.... Do you think Quinn would have been targeted so quickly for a head coaching job if Pete made all the defensive play call's ? HELL NO.... Team owners and GM's targeted Quinn because our D was kicking ass and he was behind it calling the shots... This is on Richards and what Pete needs to do is step in .. SOON, he's let it go on long enough.... If he doesn't were done....

So, it's more likely that Carroll is too trusting of the new coordinator of his championship defense built to his exact specifications, and allowed this trust to basically cause his team to be on the verge of elimination in week 11, than injuries or lack of execution from the players for being the root of the struggles and scheme changes? Not buying it. Maybe Richard is not as good as his predecessors, but Thomas and Chancellor are visibly not playing as they did for those predecessors.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

So, it's more likely that Carroll is too trusting of the new coordinator of his championship defense built to his exact specifications, and allowed this trust to basically cause his team to be on the verge of elimination in week 11, than injuries or lack of execution from the players for being the root of the struggles and scheme changes? Not buying it. Maybe Richard is not as good as his predecessors, but Thomas and Chancellor are visibly not playing as they did for those predecessors.

Just because he built the championship defense, which Pete did, that doesn't mean he makes the play call's during the game... That's what a DC is for ... That's the same as saying Pete runs the offense and not Bevell ... clearly Bevell runs the show there.. Pete can over-ride anything if he thinks it's not working, but so far I see the same strategy I"ve seen since day 1 of Richards debut ... Cover 2 can leave safeties 1 on 1 deep... That's not a great strategy if there hurt ... Look I hope we improve, but some serious changes are needed... We need to get back to what were good at ... Losing Max did not alter this defense that much, we still have enough talent to be better than what we are right now...

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Just because he built the championship defense, which Pete did, that doesn't mean he makes the play call's during the game... That's what a DC is for ... That's the same as saying Pete runs the offense and not Bevell ... clearly Bevell runs the show there.. Pete can over-ride anything if he thinks it's not working, but so far I see the same strategy I"ve seen since day 1 of Richards debut ... Cover 2 can leave safeties 1 on 1 deep... That's not a great strategy if there hurt ... Look I hope we improve, but some serious changes are needed... We need to get back to what were good at ... Losing Max did not alter this defense that much, we still have enough talent to be better than what we are right now...

Don't recall our safeties being one on one deep very often. Seems to always be a corner one on one ( where's the help?) and getting beat.

 

[chf]

Ok.. Sure we've faced good QB's... But let's be honest... If your not covering the receiver a high school QB can make some of those throws... We've left guy's WIDE open many times this year...

And there have been some of those plays where there was some kind of breakdown (Winning TD vs Carolina), but those aren't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about a d-back in perfect trail position, but the QB simply makes the perfect throw anyway.

 

[SonnyCID]

Just because he built the championship defense, which Pete did, that doesn't mean he makes the play call's during the game... That's what a DC is for ... That's the same as saying Pete runs the offense and not Bevell ... clearly Bevell runs the show there.. Pete can over-ride anything if he thinks it's not working, but so far I see the same strategy I"ve seen since day 1 of Richards debut ... Cover 2 can leave safeties 1 on 1 deep... That's not a great strategy if there hurt ... Look I hope we improve, but some serious changes are needed... We need to get back to what were good at ... Losing Max did not alter this defense that much, we still have enough talent to be better than what we are right now...

Cover 1 and cover 3 require more range from your safeties than cover 2. Because we've had that range the past few years, it's why the Hawks have used it so much. Now, possibly they feel like that elite range isn't there, so they send two safeties deep to try and keep the play in front of them.