What do the RAIDERS need

[DJ]

I guess if that helps you sleep at night. Division titles though matter to pretty much every one out there. Winning your division is goal #1 for any team and a Del Rio lead team has never done it. A Kubiak team has done it 3 of the last 4 years he has been a HC. To me that trumps Del Rio by quite a bit.

Your boy might be entering with a loaded young team. Mine is entering with a Super Bowl winning squad that knows how to win.

I normally agree with you in most cases, cdumler but Kubiak isn't all that. He was just okay in Houston and eventually got fired for not being able to get the Texans over the proverbia hump. He lucked out by being buds with Elway into a situation where he had a loaded team with the Broncos. They might have won the SB and all but Kubiak is no genius by any stretch of the imagination. I'd say JDR and Kubiak are pretty similar when it comes to being decent to good head coaches. One is an offensive guy and the other is a defensive guy being the major differences.

 

[cdumler7]

I normally agree with you in most cases, cdumler but Kubiak isn't all that. He was just okay in Houston and eventually got fired for not being able to get the Texans over the proverbia hump. He lucked out by being buds with Elway into a situation where he had a loaded team with the Broncos. They might have won the SB and all but Kubiak is no genius by any stretch of the imagination. I'd say JDR and Kubiak are pretty similar when it comes to being decent to good head coaches. One is an offensive guy and the other is a defensive guy being the major differences.

We are also talking that Kubiak and Del Rio for their first HC jobs walked into 2 very different situations. Jaguars were actually pretty darn good then had a couple of mediocre years that got their coach fired. Kubiak walked into the least winning team in the league during that stretch before he came to town. He took a team with 0 .500 or better seasons up to that point with 7 wins the most they had and only 5 in every other season or less. 5 of his 8 seasons with them he finished .500 or better and produced the first division titles in their history.

To me Kubiak proved himself all the more by taking pretty much the same team as the year before that 3 guys who are now HC's in this league couldn't win the whole thing with. He also did this with the worst Manning of that stretch. I would be agreeing with you more if I felt like Manning really was carrying the team and making it easy on the new HC but Kubiak came in and had to manage a very terrible QB situation and a team that quickly could have gotten torn apart with a QB controversy.

Anyway at this point Kubiak has proven to be a Super Bowl winning Coach so to me you can't compare the two. That is just a huge accomplishment jumping off the page between the two.

 

[cdumler7]

@DJ here is a thought. Most of the top coaches in the league failed at their first job as a HC. Really John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin have found success right off the bat. They also walked into 2 of the most stable franchises in the entire league though. Beyond them though most have failed and had to learn after taking a step back and growing. To me I look at Kubiak and I see a coach who really grew in his time away after being fired. He credits how he handled veterans and getting young players experience in practice and in games to that of his time in Baltimore. Said he switched up how he runs practices by watching what they do. So right now I guess we can look back at his Houston days but I do think Kubiak is a different coach that has proven he has grown by going out and winning a Super Bowl year one. At this point we do not know how much growth Del Rio has had from his last Head Coaching job. Del Rio has a lot more to prove before we start talking about these two even being close to being the same level of coach.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

A drive by post.. But this is pretty cool?? ESPN has the RAIDERS as the 7th best talent in the league, KC at 9 Denver 11 and the Bolts at 22..

 

[cdumler7]

I guess my main question just thinking on this whole coaching situation is what has Del Rio learned from his past coaching experience, being fired, going to the Broncos, and now being rehired. One of the things I love about the Broncos is they are a very transparent group. Kubiak especially is not afraid to speak very openly about things. One of those being how his experience in Baltimore really changed his entire philosophy on coaching, how to run practices, how to prepare for games, how to deal with players, and so on. And I think you saw a lot of that show up this past season. He completely ran practice differently than Fox ever thought about. Learning how Fox and his group prepared the team for the Super Bowl compared to what Kubiak did is another great example of just the differences in how coaches will do things and really how much of an impact that can have on the team. So far I haven't seen anything at least in the games that makes me think Del Rio is a different coach than what he was with the Jaguars. That is only the games so maybe you have some more insight to what he does in practices or the off season that he has really grown into a different coach.

Like I said most coaches fail at their first go around unless they walk into a very good situation. The question is what does that coach learn from that experience that they change to show that they have grown into a great coach? At least watching the defensive side of the ball for the Raiders last year it honestly looked like a very classic Del Rio defense with a few added wrinkles that look a bit like the Seahawks from KNJ. I didn't see much that made me think though at least in game coaching that Del Rio is different. Any thoughts on all this @DJ?

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I normally agree with you in most cases, cdumler but Kubiak isn't all that. He was just okay in Houston and eventually got fired for not being able to get the Texans over the proverbia hump. He lucked out by being buds with Elway into a situation where he had a loaded team with the Broncos. They might have won the SB and all but Kubiak is no genius by any stretch of the imagination. I'd say JDR and Kubiak are pretty similar when it comes to being decent to good head coaches. One is an offensive guy and the other is a defensive guy being the major differences.

I never really agree with cd, but i do agree with you DJ!! Kubiak = JDR.. Both are good solid coaches, but one just happen to fall into a good thing while the other took over a young team.. The book is not yet finished on JDR

 

[cdumler7]

I never really agree with cd, but i do agree with you DJ!! Kubiak = JDR.. Both are good solid coaches, but one just happen to fall into a good thing while the other took over a young team.. The book is not yet finished on JDR

Until JDR wins a Super Bowl as a HC there is no way you can put those two in the same category anymore. I'm sorry but that just makes 0 sense. Yeah before this I can see a small argument that they were equal or close to it. But you are acting like coaches stay on the exact same plane their entire careers. Some coaches learn and grow and become all star coaches like that of Belichick and Carroll who were both fired from their first jobs. Heck I think this is Carroll's third job. He talks all the time about what he learned from each job and how it has helped him to become the coach he is today. Listening to Kubiak this past year he talks all the time about his time in Baltimore and all he learned from their organization that has really helped shape the way he runs a team. Again just wondering if Del Rio talks in a similar way about how he has grown as a coach from his time in Jacksonville compared to the coach he is today.

Like I said we see plenty of coaches who fail miserably at first but grow and turn into something great. We see others that just never seem to figure it out as a HC and are just better coordinators than they are HC's. Heck I've pointed that out with Phillips on here of how everything is usually pretty darn good when he is just the DC. It is when he gets promoted to HC that things fall apart for him.

 

[cdumler7]

Also not sure not agreeing with me often does well for you. The past few years we have argued over the division with you picking the Raiders every single year and the downfall of the Broncos. Yet so far that has never quite worked out in your favor. YOu have talked about these players for your team that will be All-Pro level and will make this incredible leap but other than Mack and Woodson none of them have come close to that. So again not sure disagreeing with me on everything is a great thing. Not saying I"m always right by any means though.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Until JDR wins a Super Bowl as a HC there is no way you can put those two in the same category anymore. I'm sorry but that just makes 0 sense. Yeah before this I can see a small argument that they were equal or close to it. But you are acting like coaches stay on the exact same plane their entire careers. Some coaches learn and grow and become all star coaches like that of Belichick and Carroll who were both fired from their first jobs. Heck I think this is Carroll's third job. He talks all the time about what he learned from each job and how it has helped him to become the coach he is today. Listening to Kubiak this past year he talks all the time about his time in Baltimore and all he learned from their organization that has really helped shape the way he runs a team. Again just wondering if Del Rio talks in a similar way about how he has grown as a coach from his time in Jacksonville compared to the coach he is today.

Like I said we see plenty of coaches who fail miserably at first but grow and turn into something great. We see others that just never seem to figure it out as a HC and are just better coordinators than they are HC's. Heck I've pointed that out with Phillips on here of how everything is usually pretty darn good when he is just the DC. It is when he gets promoted to HC that things fall apart for him.

I don't have time to talk right now cd.. But you just know I will reply to that post..

 

[cdumler7]

I don't have time to talk right now cd.. But you just know I will reply to that post..

Sounds good.

 

[cdumler7]

On quick thing here Idaho...I guess explain to me how a coach "Lucks" into a Super Bowl victory. You don't win a Super Bowl on luck alone. A HC is the one that helps figure out the preparation schedule every week. He works with both the offense and defense while also balancing all the personalities of the locker room while also getting on the same page with the FO. He is the go between from the players to the higher ups.

Heck this past year Kubiak had to take over a team coming off 4 straight division wins and the coach getting fired. So coming in he knows expectations are he has to win the division and more. Then you throw in a HOF QB who is a complete shell of himself. In fact his QB broke down half way through the season. He then had to go to the back up unproven guy and keep the ship going in the right direction. Then in the final game of the season with Home Field advantage on the line he mad the bold decision to switch back to Manning when the game wasn't quite going right and then to keep Manning in the rest of the post season.

So not like Kubiak just came in and did nothing to help guide this team to a Super Bowl. This almost exact same team the year before with Fox, Gase, and Del Rio who are all HC's couldn't get past the Divisional Round and the year before that couldn't win the Super Bowl. So to me I think it is pretty disrespectful to say a coach "lucked" into a Super Bowl win. No he was one of the huge deciding factors in what helped this team finally get over the hump. Something the old regime just couldn't quite do.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

On quick thing here Idaho...I guess explain to me how a coach "Lucks" into a Super Bowl victory. You don't win a Super Bowl on luck alone. A HC is the one that helps figure out the preparation schedule every week. He works with both the offense and defense while also balancing all the personalities of the locker room while also getting on the same page with the FO. He is the go between from the players to the higher ups.

Heck this past year Kubiak had to take over a team coming off 4 straight division wins and the coach getting fired. So coming in he knows expectations are he has to win the division and more. Then you throw in a HOF QB who is a complete shell of himself. In fact his QB broke down half way through the season. He then had to go to the back up unproven guy and keep the ship going in the right direction. Then in the final game of the season with Home Field advantage on the line he mad the bold decision to switch back to Manning when the game wasn't quite going right and then to keep Manning in the rest of the post season.

So not like Kubiak just came in and did nothing to help guide this team to a Super Bowl. This almost exact same team the year before with Fox, Gase, and Del Rio who are all HC's couldn't get past the Divisional Round and the year before that couldn't win the Super Bowl. So to me I think it is pretty disrespectful to say a coach "lucked" into a Super Bowl win. No he was one of the huge deciding factors in what helped this team finally get over the hump. Something the old regime just couldn't quite do.

You just answered your own post cd.. If you read it carefully..

 

[cdumler7]

You just answered your own post cd.. If you read it carefully..

I guess explain it to me then of how I answered my own question? 3 guys who are HC's now couldn't get it done with a very good squad. Having a very talented team is not all it takes to win the Super Bowl. A coach has to step in at different times for different reasons to make some tough decisions that ultimately effect the outcome of some of the biggest games of the year.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I guess explain it to me then of how I answered my own question? 3 guys who are HC's now couldn't get it done with a very good squad. Having a very talented team is not all it takes to win the Super Bowl. A coach has to step in at different times for different reasons to make some tough decisions that ultimately effect the outcome of some of the biggest games of the year.

Those 3 coaches were the better coaches and had the better teams.. Then Kubiak and his staff walk right into that team and won the SB, with alot of LUCK!! What did Kubiak do that was so great to win the SB?? His Offense stank pretty much man.. You pretty much said that yourself..

 

[cdumler7]

Those 3 coaches were the better coaches and had the better teams.. Then Kubiak and his staff walk right into that team and won the SB, with alot of LUCK!! What did Kubiak do that was so great to win the SB?? His Offense stank pretty much man.. You pretty much said that yourself..

What did he do...Hmmm made some tough calls on things like benching a HOF QB in Peyton Manning and going with an unproven player in Osweiler. Then when things were going bad with Osweiler in a must win game he switched to Peyton once again and then stuck with Peyton for the playoffs.

He balanced a lot of really big personalities when they could have easily divided. They could have divided over who should be starting at QB. Plenty of teams have had that happen. They could have divided over the fact that the defense was carrying the team with the offense struggling but again managed the personalities.

A coach does more than just call plays...you know that right? A HC is actually more of a manager as he is the guy delegating the work to the different groups he has hired and then checking to make sure they are all doing their jobs. Again he is the guy that goes between the FO and that of the players on what is going on. He also has to make the in game decisions on when to challenge plays, what to do in certain situations time outs, running the 2-minute offense, clock management, and so on. We saw Andy Reid a very popular coach in the league completely screw that up in the playoffs and possibly cost his team a chance at the AFC Championship. So yes coaches can impact a game positively and negatively. Again to me it is pretty darn disrespectful to say a coach only lucked into a Super Bowl victory. There is a reason only a handful of HC's in the league right now have a Super Bowl title. There is a reason those coaches are sought after more than any other coach in the league. You don't luck into a Super Bowl win.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

What did he do...Hmmm made some tough calls on things like benching a HOF QB in Peyton Manning and going with an unproven player in Osweiler. Then when things were going bad with Osweiler in a must win game he switched to Peyton once again and then stuck with Peyton for the playoffs.

He balanced a lot of really big personalities when they could have easily divided. They could have divided over who should be starting at QB. Plenty of teams have had that happen. They could have divided over the fact that the defense was carrying the team with the offense struggling but again managed the personalities.

A coach does more than just call plays...you know that right? A HC is actually more of a manager as he is the guy delegating the work to the different groups he has hired and then checking to make sure they are all doing their jobs. Again he is the guy that goes between the FO and that of the players on what is going on. He also has to make the in game decisions on when to challenge plays, what to do in certain situations time outs, running the 2-minute offense, clock management, and so on. We saw Andy Reid a very popular coach in the league completely screw that up in the playoffs and possibly cost his team a chance at the AFC Championship. So yes coaches can impact a game positively and negatively. Again to me it is pretty darn disrespectful to say a coach only lucked into a Super Bowl victory. There is a reason only a handful of HC's in the league right now have a Super Bowl title. There is a reason those coaches are sought after more than any other coach in the league. You don't luck into a Super Bowl win.

Smh cd.. Again cd, i ask you.. What did Kubiak do that makes him some great coach?? It's not about disrespect cd, i gave you props on that win after you guys won it.. You say Kubiak is some great coach and i asked you why?? And benching PM when he's clearly hurting is not some great thing cd.. You said plenty of times that your O plainly stank, so what makes him so great?? Maybe Phillips is the guy that should get the credit for that win..

 

[cdumler7]

Smh cd.. Again cd, i ask you.. What did Kubiak do that makes him some great coach?? It's not about disrespect cd, i gave you props on that win after you guys won it.. You say Kubiak is some great coach and i asked you why?? And benching PM when he's clearly hurting is not some great thing cd.. You said plenty of times that your O plainly stank, so what makes him so great?? Maybe Phillips is the guy that should get the credit for that win..

You have broken this down to the idea that Kubiak all he does is coach the offense and that is the only thing he did for this team and with the offense doing pretty bad then that means Kubiak is not a great coach. What a HC does though goes so much beyond just coaching one side of the ball. Kubiak for example spoke to what he learned in Baltimore. One of the biggest things he learned was that of how to train up the young players and how to conserve the veterans. He learned the importance of getting veterans quite a few days off especially in the off season. This allows then the young guys to get a lot more experience and a lot more snaps. It allows the team to have a focus on the here and now but also on the future of training up the next group of players. So he changed up how he does practices and hey look the Broncos were one of the more rested teams coming into the playoffs while also having great depth that could step in when needed and make a play.

He also changed up what he focused on during practice spending much more time on technique than he did in Houston. So again the young guys got a lot more coaching/teaching than under the Fox regime.

And again it cannot be overstated the work of balancing a lot of huge personalities in the locker room. When players/coaches or whoever have a problem the HC is the one that has to step in and fix the issue.

A HC also is one that makes some decisions on when a player should return. With Kubiak even if his medical staff told him a player could play he usually gave them another week of rest just to make sure they were coming back as close to 100% as they could. So a guy like Ware who missed time during the season was then actually at 100% for the playoffs.

Also to me the decision to put Manning in for the final week of the season was a huge move. Manning hadn't played in a game for 7 weeks at that point. So no telling what he is going to bring to the table or how the players are going to respond mid-game. Then to stick with Manning for the playoffs. If the Broncos go one and done everybody is ripping on Kubiak for going with the broken down Manning. It was a huge risk to make that decision.

There is so much more but that is just some of the things that Kubiak did this past year that impacted our team.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

You have broken this down to the idea that Kubiak all he does is coach the offense and that is the only thing he did for this team and with the offense doing pretty bad then that means Kubiak is not a great coach. What a HC does though goes so much beyond just coaching one side of the ball. Kubiak for example spoke to what he learned in Baltimore. One of the biggest things he learned was that of how to train up the young players and how to conserve the veterans. He learned the importance of getting veterans quite a few days off especially in the off season. This allows then the young guys to get a lot more experience and a lot more snaps. It allows the team to have a focus on the here and now but also on the future of training up the next group of players. So he changed up how he does practices and hey look the Broncos were one of the more rested teams coming into the playoffs while also having great depth that could step in when needed and make a play.

He also changed up what he focused on during practice spending much more time on technique than he did in Houston. So again the young guys got a lot more coaching/teaching than under the Fox regime.

And again it cannot be overstated the work of balancing a lot of huge personalities in the locker room. When players/coaches or whoever have a problem the HC is the one that has to step in and fix the issue.

A HC also is one that makes some decisions on when a player should return. With Kubiak even if his medical staff told him a player could play he usually gave them another week of rest just to make sure they were coming back as close to 100% as they could. So a guy like Ware who missed time during the season was then actually at 100% for the playoffs.

Also to me the decision to put Manning in for the final week of the season was a huge move. Manning hadn't played in a game for 7 weeks at that point. So no telling what he is going to bring to the table or how the players are going to respond mid-game. Then to stick with Manning for the playoffs. If the Broncos go one and done everybody is ripping on Kubiak for going with the broken down Manning. It was a huge risk to make that decision.

There is so much more but that is just some of the things that Kubiak did this past year that impacted our team.

JDR and Fox are respected coaches among players and league cd.. Good coaches!! But they ran into a Seattle team that was not going to lose.. You guys had a TOP O and D with those coaches period!!
They showed the players how to play, see their SB run..
Again i ask you cd what did Kubiak do that was much better than Fox or JDR?? If anything Kubiak O took a step back.. Luck played a huge factor in that win..

 

[cdumler7]

JDR and Fox are respected coaches among players and league cd.. Good coaches!! But they ran into a Seattle team that was not going to lose.. You guys had a TOP O and D with those coaches period!!
They showed the players how to play, see their SB run..
Again i ask you cd what did Kubiak do that was much better than Fox or JDR?? If anything Kubiak O took a step back.. Luck played a huge factor in that win..

Well let's see.

1) Players have commented that the coaching staff of that 2013 Super Bowl against Seattle did not prepare them well enough. They also said that the practices leading up to the Super Bowl were too grueling and they didn't feel like they had any energy when they got to the game. They were not prepared for any kind of noise which completely through off the offensive game plan and lead to the opening bad snap over Manning's head and other problems for the OL throughout the entire game.

2) That 2013 Broncos team did not have a top-D by any means. Total Defense they were 19th in the league that year. Points per game allowed they were 22nd. So again not a great defense.

3) Not saying they didn't coach up the players but I have followed the Broncos plenty and what I hear that is happening at practice now compared to under the Fox regime is much more the teaching side of things. Also part of the reason that Fox and company were fired was because they were not working with the young players enough to develop them. This is very well documented that Fox was much more into training up the veterans than working with the young guys to get them prepared. Elway hated this as he felt like all of his draft picks were spending way too long on the bench.

4) You cannot compare the offenses of 2012-2014 to that of 2015. We are talking about a completely different Peyton Manning running the show. Manning hit the wall and fell off big time. Heck we saw it at the end of 2014 where over the final 6 weeks and then in the playoffs Manning was down right terrible and the offense was down right terrible. So even under the Fox regime we saw the writing was on the wall for Manning and what was to come.

5) Del Rio with pretty much the exact same starting defense while they were good were nowhere near what they were this past season. Again Elway got after Del Rio for how he was using the talent letting him know he expected more from the unit. We see this year Elway was justified in getting after Del Rio because this unit was incredible. That is what they should have been in 2014 as well but they were not.

6) Idaho honestly if you want to call it Luck go ahead I guess. Can't stop you. If you can't see what this team did and how much Kubiak had an impact though just think I am done on here for a while. Need a bit of a break from the Raiders board.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Well let's see.

1) Players have commented that the coaching staff of that 2013 Super Bowl against Seattle did not prepare them well enough. They also said that the practices leading up to the Super Bowl were too grueling and they didn't feel like they had any energy when they got to the game. They were not prepared for any kind of noise which completely through off the offensive game plan and lead to the opening bad snap over Manning's head and other problems for the OL throughout the entire game.

2) That 2013 Broncos team did not have a top-D by any means. Total Defense they were 19th in the league that year. Points per game allowed they were 22nd. So again not a great defense.

3) Not saying they didn't coach up the players but I have followed the Broncos plenty and what I hear that is happening at practice now compared to under the Fox regime is much more the teaching side of things. Also part of the reason that Fox and company were fired was because they were not working with the young players enough to develop them. This is very well documented that Fox was much more into training up the veterans than working with the young guys to get them prepared. Elway hated this as he felt like all of his draft picks were spending way too long on the bench.

4) You cannot compare the offenses of 2012-2014 to that of 2015. We are talking about a completely different Peyton Manning running the show. Manning hit the wall and fell off big time. Heck we saw it at the end of 2014 where over the final 6 weeks and then in the playoffs Manning was down right terrible and the offense was down right terrible. So even under the Fox regime we saw the writing was on the wall for Manning and what was to come.

5) Del Rio with pretty much the exact same starting defense while they were good were nowhere near what they were this past season. Again Elway got after Del Rio for how he was using the talent letting him know he expected more from the unit. We see this year Elway was justified in getting after Del Rio because this unit was incredible. That is what they should have been in 2014 as well but they were not.

6) Idaho honestly if you want to call it Luck go ahead I guess. Can't stop you. If you can't see what this team did and how much Kubiak had an impact though just think I am done on here for a while. Need a bit of a break from the Raiders board.

Stop the BS cd and tell me what makes Kubiak some great coach?? You already said his O was sheety, So what makes him great??