What do the RAIDERS need

[cdumler7]

Question for you Idaho...Not only where do you rank Kubiak but where do you rank Del Rio among HC's in the NFL? What has he shown you that you think he is going to be the guy to finally lead the Raiders back to being a force in the NFL? And again I've asked this a couple of times but what about Del Rio has changed from his days with the Jaguars? If he is the same coach can we really expect anything different from the Raiders than what we saw from the Jaguars?

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Question for you Idaho...Not only where do you rank Kubiak but where do you rank Del Rio among HC's in the NFL? What has he shown you that you think he is going to be the guy to finally lead the Raiders back to being a force in the NFL? And again I've asked this a couple of times but what about Del Rio has changed from his days with the Jaguars? If he is the same coach can we really expect anything different from the Raiders than what we saw from the Jaguars?

I would rank kubiak right around the same place i have JDR.. 10ish or so.. All those things you say Kubiak has brought to you guys, well JDR has brought those same thing for us.. The thing here is Kubiak walked right into a pretty good Vet team that was ready to win, while JDR walked into the tail end of a rebuilding team..

 

[cdumler7]

I would rank kubiak right around the same place i have JDR.. 10ish or so.. All those things you say Kubiak has brought to you guys, well JDR has brought those same thing for us.. The thing here is Kubiak walked right into a pretty good Vet team that was ready to win, while JDR walked into the tail end of a rebuilding team..

Well we are not far off then in our evaluation of Kubiak. I have him at 6 right now where you have him at 10. Del Rio though we are definitely off on our evaluation. He has a lot to prove to me before I put him even top-15. I have him around 20th among all the coaches.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Well we are not far off then in our evaluation of Kubiak. I have him at 6 right now where you have him at 10. Del Rio though we are definitely off on our evaluation. He has a lot to prove to me before I put him even top-15. I have him around 20th among all the coaches.

I told you Kubiak is a good coach, i just don't think he's an elite coach.. I put him right there with JDR in the coaching ranks.. Now they both have room to grow, young coaches entering their second HC coaching gigs..
Thats why i say the book ain't finished on JDR, he still has time to grow..

 

[cdumler7]

I told you Kubiak is a good coach, i just don't think he's an elite coach.. I put him right there with JDR in the coaching ranks.. Now they both have room to grow, young coaches entering their second HC coaching gigs..
Thats why i say the book ain't finished on JDR, he still has time to grow..

And I haven't said that he doesn't have time to grow. JDR though just has a lot to prove at this point. He was mediocre at best in his time with Jacksonville and so far has been mediocre with the Raiders looking just about what it looked like in Jacksonville. If the Raiders fail to make the playoffs this year with how much hype they are getting then to me that falls a lot on Del Rio and the coaching staff for not getting the best out of the players.

And as far as Kubiak compared to Del Rio I guess you can put them in the same spot but I just don't see after Kubiak won a Super Bowl how you can. I know you keep justifying it by saying it was luck but we are talking about a handful of men in the history of the NFL that have won a Super Bowl as a HC. Only 21 men in the history of the NFL have won a Super Bowl. So it would take a ridiculous level of luck for Kubiak to have won the Super Bowl with him only being the "Trent Dilfer" of NFL coaches. Almost all the NFL coaches that have retired that won Super Bowls have made the HOF showing again that they join a very elite group of coaches in the history of this game.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I told you Kubiak is a good coach, i just don't think he's an elite coach.. I put him right there with JDR in the coaching ranks.. Now they both have room to grow, young coaches entering their second HC coaching gigs..
Thats why i say the book ain't finished on JDR, he still has time to grow..

The players love JDR and his work ethic, and what he has brought to this team.. All that sheet you say Kubiak has brought to you guys, well JDR has brought here.. The players would run through a brick wall for JDR..
And when you have that kind of respect there is no limit how good you can be..

 

[cdumler7]

The players love JDR and his work ethic, and what he has brought to this team.. All that sheet you say Kubiak has brought to you guys, well JDR has brought here.. The players would run through a brick wall for JDR..
And when you have that kind of respect there is no limit how good you can be..

See this I don't agree with. Plenty of coaches have had players say that about their HC. Just because you like your HC doesn't mean it is going to lead to Super Bowl wins or even wins in general. Bill Belichick is considered one of the hardest men in all of football to get along with. Heck his own players when they leave talk about it being night and day difference going to another organization and the freedom they get to experience. AT the same time no team has had more success over the last 20 years than that of the Patriots. So again different coaching styles can still lead to success. Likeability to me is not exactly at the top of the list of why a coach is successful.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

And I haven't said that he doesn't have time to grow. JDR though just has a lot to prove at this point. He was mediocre at best in his time with Jacksonville and so far has been mediocre with the Raiders looking just about what it looked like in Jacksonville. If the Raiders fail to make the playoffs this year with how much hype they are getting then to me that falls a lot on Del Rio and the coaching staff for not getting the best out of the players.

And as far as Kubiak compared to Del Rio I guess you can put them in the same spot but I just don't see after Kubiak won a Super Bowl how you can. I know you keep justifying it by saying it was luck but we are talking about a handful of men in the history of the NFL that have won a Super Bowl as a HC. Only 21 men in the history of the NFL have won a Super Bowl. So it would take a ridiculous level of luck for Kubiak to have won the Super Bowl with him only being the "Trent Dilfer" of NFL coaches. Almost all the NFL coaches that have retired that won Super Bowls have made the HOF showing again that they join a very elite group of coaches in the history of this game.

Funny how you judge him from his Jags days, even when he took his team to the playoffs with weak talent..
Now Kubiak and his Texan days is what gives me pause on the guy.. Dude had a LOADED team full of talent on both sides of the ball and still couldn't get it done..
So i would rank JDR ahead of Kubiak based on what i seen so far.. But i have them both around that 10 spot, but with JDR ahead by a few..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

See this I don't agree with. Plenty of coaches have had players say that about their HC. Just because you like your HC doesn't mean it is going to lead to Super Bowl wins or even wins in general. Bill Belichick is considered one of the hardest men in all of football to get along with. Heck his own players when they leave talk about it being night and day difference going to another organization and the freedom they get to experience. AT the same time no team has had more success over the last 20 years than that of the Patriots. So again different coaching styles can still lead to success. Likeability to me is not exactly at the top of the list of why a coach is successful.

I understand that.. But when you have respect from whoever that makes you leader of men..
And please don't bring up the overrated cheater in Billyisacheat!! The Pats are Tom Brady and his system period!!

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I understand that.. But when you have respect from whoever that makes you leader of men..
And please don't bring up the overrated cheater in Billyisacheat!! The Pats are Tom Brady and his system period!!

And even Brady cheated for crying out loud!!

 

[cdumler7]

Funny how you judge him from his Jags days, even when he took his team to the playoffs with weak talent..
Now Kubiak and his Texan days is what gives me pause on the guy.. Dude had a LOADED team full of talent on both sides of the ball and still couldn't get it done..
So i would rank JDR ahead of Kubiak based on what i seen so far.. But i have them both around that 10 spot, but with JDR ahead by a few..

Didn't have talent? Marcus Stroud was one of the best DL players when Del Rio first started out. John Henderson, Rashean Mathis, Fred Taylor, David Garrard, MJD, Marcedes Lewis, and some others.

He had talent. And if you want to argue he didn't well part of coaching is actually coaching up players to be talented. So either way he failed. Either he had talent and failed or he failed to coach up the players on the team to actually have success.

 

[cdumler7]

I understand that.. But when you have respect from whoever that makes you leader of men..
And please don't bring up the overrated cheater in Billyisacheat!! The Pats are Tom Brady and his system period!!

Can't argue with success. Maybe they cheated to help win but they have been what every team has strived to be in terms of success. Belichick is part of that. Throw in his coordinators have been hired at a ridiculous rate because teams see just how good the Patriots are and hope that the Coordinators can bring that with them. What they find is that Belichick though is the man who really brings all that system together to be so successful.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Didn't have talent? Marcus Stroud was one of the best DL players when Del Rio first started out. John Henderson, Rashean Mathis, Fred Taylor, David Garrard, MJD, Marcedes Lewis, and some others.

He had talent. And if you want to argue he didn't well part of coaching is actually coaching up players to be talented. So either way he failed. Either he had talent and failed or he failed to coach up the players on the team to actually have success.

So they both failed the first time around, but only Kubiak gets the benefit of the doubt?? Is that how it works for you cd?? Only Kubiak can make it, while JDR will fail??

Who walked into the better team cd?? Kubiak or JDR?? And even then JDR had his young team game in every game we played..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Can't argue with success. Maybe they cheated to help win but they have been what every team has strived to be in terms of success. Belichick is part of that. Throw in his coordinators have been hired at a ridiculous rate because teams see just how good the Patriots are and hope that the Coordinators can bring that with them. What they find is that Belichick though is the man who really brings all that system together to be so successful.

Can't argue with a drug dealer and his success either, and yet he gets busted in the end..
I don't want to talk about that franchise cd, it's stained!!

 

[cdumler7]

So they both failed the first time around, but only Kubiak gets the benefit of the doubt?? Is that how it works for you cd?? Only Kubiak can make it, while JDR will fail??

Who walked into the better team cd?? Kubiak or JDR?? And even then JDR had his young team game in every game we played..

Didn't say they exactly failed. I said they didn't have the greatest starts. They showed some promise by taking their teams to the playoffs but for the most part both Kubiak and JDR would both say that their first time around as HC's was not a success. Winning the Super Bowl is how Coaches will be judged. Rarely do you see a coach considered an elite coach in this league without having won a Super Bowl.

Who walked into a better team...Well obviously Kubiak. He proved though that with a talented team he could win it all. At this point we have no clue what Del Rio is. So far he has a losing record with the Raiders. That is all we know of Del Rio at this point. What we know of Kubiak is that he is a Super Bowl winning HC in this league. That is why I don't think you can put them in the same category. Del Rio has been about a .500 coach most of his career. So to me the highest you can put him at this point is .500. YOu saying that he is in the same boat as a Super Bowl winning coach to me is more wishful thinking and hoping that he amounts to even close to that more so than anything that he has proven so far in this league. There are lots of coaches on top of that that have done much better but yet haven't won a Super Bowl. So you have the 7 guys in the league that have won a Super Bowl then guys like Arians, Zimmer, Bowles, Fox, Fischer, Garrett, Kelly, Lewis, O'Brien, Pagano, Reid, and Rivera who all have much better regular season records and playoff records than that of Del Rio. So again you are projecting in the hopes that Del Rio will be that level of coach compared to anything he has actually shown coaching in this league so far.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Didn't say they exactly failed. I said they didn't have the greatest starts. They showed some promise by taking their teams to the playoffs but for the most part both Kubiak and JDR would both say that their first time around as HC's was not a success. Winning the Super Bowl is how Coaches will be judged. Rarely do you see a coach considered an elite coach in this league without having won a Super Bowl.

Who walked into a better team...Well obviously Kubiak. He proved though that with a talented team he could win it all. At this point we have no clue what Del Rio is. So far he has a losing record with the Raiders. That is all we know of Del Rio at this point. What we know of Kubiak is that he is a Super Bowl winning HC in this league. That is why I don't think you can put them in the same category. Del Rio has been about a .500 coach most of his career. So to me the highest you can put him at this point is .500. YOu saying that he is in the same boat as a Super Bowl winning coach to me is more wishful thinking and hoping that he amounts to even close to that more so than anything that he has proven so far in this league. There are lots of coaches on top of that that have done much better but yet haven't won a Super Bowl. So you have the 7 guys in the league that have won a Super Bowl then guys like Arians, Zimmer, Bowles, Fox, Fischer, Garrett, Kelly, Lewis, O'Brien, Pagano, Reid, and Rivera who all have much better regular season records and playoff records than that of Del Rio. So again you are projecting in the hopes that Del Rio will be that level of coach compared to anything he has actually shown coaching in this league so far.

Great coaches are not judged by SBs only cd.. Or this brings us back to what DJ said?? Dilfer won a SB, so does that make him a great QB??

And Kubiak walked right into an every 10 years type D that Phillips took to the SB.. The system you guys ran was a Kubiak Offense, and had it not been from a every 10 years type D you guys would of been a lottery team with said Offense, the Kubiak Offense..

And JDR only coached the Jags as a HC and went to the playoffs with that team, despite having Leftwhich and Gerrard as his QBs.. So how can you judge him based on that lack of talent cd??
Most picked the Texans for a SB run with all the talent Kubiak had on that team and dude got bounced year in year out.. Why not Judge that??

 

[cdumler7]

Great coaches are not judged by SBs only cd.. Or this brings us back to what DJ said?? Dilfer won a SB, so does that make him a great QB??

And Kubiak walked right into an every 10 years type D that Phillips took to the SB.. The system you guys ran was a Kubiak Offense, and had it not been from a every 10 years type D you guys would of been a lottery team with said Offense, the Kubiak Offense..

And JDR only coached the Jags as a HC and went to the playoffs with that team, despite having Leftwhich and Gerrard as his QBs.. So how can you judge him based on that lack of talent cd??
Most picked the Texans for a SB run with all the talent Kubiak had on that team and dude got bounced year in year out.. Why not Judge that??

Few things here...

1) That same talented group of defensive players were on the team the year before but didn't play at that level that we saw this past year. What does that say then about Del Rio and Fox with them both being defensive guys that they couldn't get that same production out of the same group of players? Throw in they had a much healthier Peyton Manning and a much better offense working for them. Heck they had an offense that played at historical levels but the team lost in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014 mostly because the defense couldn't produce.
2) We are also talking about a Kubiak offense here that had a very injured and broken down Peyton Manning trying to run the show. He couldn't run Kubiak's system that requires a QB to play from under Center to make the run game work. They had to come up with a completely different system to try and make it work. So no last year was not Kubiak's system. That was more of Manning's system with a bit of Kubiak's ZBS mixed in but it didn't work because the timing was off when running it out of shot gun or the pistol formation.

3) You are right they cannot be based on Super Bowls alone for coaches. At the same time if we are looking at two guys that up until this past year had similar histories as a coach and then one at his 2nd stint goes in and wins a Super Bowl and the other has a losing season to me how can you rank the one with a losing season, worst record regular season, hasn't even won a divisional title compared to 3 for the other coach ahead of the one that has proven to win it?

4) The year that Kubiak and the Texans were considered among the say top-4 or so teams in the league they also lost their Pro Bowl QB late in the season. Then their back up came in and was injured. So they went into the playoffs with their 3rd string QB starting. They actually won a playoff game with the 3rd string guy playing. Still you can't expect a team to win the Super Bowl with their 3rd string QB. It has never happened in the history of the NFL. So can you really put that blame on Kubiak for not winning with a 3rd string QB?

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Few things here...

1) That same talented group of defensive players were on the team the year before but didn't play at that level that we saw this past year. What does that say then about Del Rio and Fox with them both being defensive guys that they couldn't get that same production out of the same group of players? Throw in they had a much healthier Peyton Manning and a much better offense working for them. Heck they had an offense that played at historical levels but the team lost in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014 mostly because the defense couldn't produce.
2) We are also talking about a Kubiak offense here that had a very injured and broken down Peyton Manning trying to run the show. He couldn't run Kubiak's system that requires a QB to play from under Center to make the run game work. They had to come up with a completely different system to try and make it work. So no last year was not Kubiak's system. That was more of Manning's system with a bit of Kubiak's ZBS mixed in but it didn't work because the timing was off when running it out of shot gun or the pistol formation.

3) You are right they cannot be based on Super Bowls alone for coaches. At the same time if we are looking at two guys that up until this past year had similar histories as a coach and then one at his 2nd stint goes in and wins a Super Bowl and the other has a losing season to me how can you rank the one with a losing season, worst record regular season, hasn't even won a divisional title compared to 3 for the other coach ahead of the one that has proven to win it?

4) The year that Kubiak and the Texans were considered among the say top-4 or so teams in the league they also lost their Pro Bowl QB late in the season. Then their back up came in and was injured. So they went into the playoffs with their 3rd string QB starting. They actually won a playoff game with the 3rd string guy playing. Still you can't expect a team to win the Super Bowl with their 3rd string QB. It has never happened in the history of the NFL. So can you really put that blame on Kubiak for not winning with a 3rd string QB?

I don't want to be rude cd, but i have a few things i have to do..
This is a good post and i will reply to it.. I shall return.. Peace

 

[cdumler7]

I don't want to be rude cd, but i have a few things i have to do..
This is a good post and i will reply to it.. I shall return.. Peace

Hey no problem. I can't sleep so I am just working in the office getting some things done. I'll be around for a while.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Few things here...

1) That same talented group of defensive players were on the team the year before but didn't play at that level that we saw this past year. What does that say then about Del Rio and Fox with them both being defensive guys that they couldn't get that same production out of the same group of players? Throw in they had a much healthier Peyton Manning and a much better offense working for them. Heck they had an offense that played at historical levels but the team lost in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014 mostly because the defense couldn't produce.
2) We are also talking about a Kubiak offense here that had a very injured and broken down Peyton Manning trying to run the show. He couldn't run Kubiak's system that requires a QB to play from under Center to make the run game work. They had to come up with a completely different system to try and make it work. So no last year was not Kubiak's system. That was more of Manning's system with a bit of Kubiak's ZBS mixed in but it didn't work because the timing was off when running it out of shot gun or the pistol formation.

3) You are right they cannot be based on Super Bowls alone for coaches. At the same time if we are looking at two guys that up until this past year had similar histories as a coach and then one at his 2nd stint goes in and wins a Super Bowl and the other has a losing season to me how can you rank the one with a losing season, worst record regular season, hasn't even won a divisional title compared to 3 for the other coach ahead of the one that has proven to win it?

4) The year that Kubiak and the Texans were considered among the say top-4 or so teams in the league they also lost their Pro Bowl QB late in the season. Then their back up came in and was injured. So they went into the playoffs with their 3rd string QB starting. They actually won a playoff game with the 3rd string guy playing. Still you can't expect a team to win the Super Bowl with their 3rd string QB. It has never happened in the history of the NFL. So can you really put that blame on Kubiak for not winning with a 3rd string QB?