What do the RAIDERS need

[idahoraiderfan33]

Few things here...

1) That same talented group of defensive players were on the team the year before but didn't play at that level that we saw this past year. What does that say then about Del Rio and Fox with them both being defensive guys that they couldn't get that same production out of the same group of players? Throw in they had a much healthier Peyton Manning and a much better offense working for them. Heck they had an offense that played at historical levels but the team lost in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014 mostly because the defense couldn't produce.
2) We are also talking about a Kubiak offense here that had a very injured and broken down Peyton Manning trying to run the show. He couldn't run Kubiak's system that requires a QB to play from under Center to make the run game work. They had to come up with a completely different system to try and make it work. So no last year was not Kubiak's system. That was more of Manning's system with a bit of Kubiak's ZBS mixed in but it didn't work because the timing was off when running it out of shot gun or the pistol formation.

3) You are right they cannot be based on Super Bowls alone for coaches. At the same time if we are looking at two guys that up until this past year had similar histories as a coach and then one at his 2nd stint goes in and wins a Super Bowl and the other has a losing season to me how can you rank the one with a losing season, worst record regular season, hasn't even won a divisional title compared to 3 for the other coach ahead of the one that has proven to win it?

4) The year that Kubiak and the Texans were considered among the say top-4 or so teams in the league they also lost their Pro Bowl QB late in the season. Then their back up came in and was injured. So they went into the playoffs with their 3rd string QB starting. They actually won a playoff game with the 3rd string guy playing. Still you can't expect a team to win the Super Bowl with their 3rd string QB. It has never happened in the history of the NFL. So can you really put that blame on Kubiak for not winning with a 3rd string QB?

Fox and JDR had some pretty good Bronco teams on both sides of the ball.. The bad news for you guys was PM being PM and choking in the big game, that's no secret dude.. Then you guys ran into a young super talented team in Seattle that was just the better all around team.. Noway you guys could of beat them, none!!

And why no mention of Osweiler cd?? He did go 5-2 as the starter for you guys, and played pretty good..
Heck ask any division rival who they were happy to see leave you guys?? Osweiler that's who, not Malik, DT,etc but Osweiler.. Again cd, PM did more for you guys than you want to give credit for, not to metion Osweiler..

And as for Kubiak Texan days?? Dude had a loaded roster every year.. There was a reason why they fired him and Phillips cd.. A so called top 5 coach don't get fired when their starting QB goes down to injury dude..
He got fired cuz he simply was not very good with the Texans.. He was average best with the Texans..
And truth be told, i was not impressed with him in Denver either.. Again average..
Now, can he get better?? Of course, anybody can!!
You will not win with pure D this year cd like last year.. So we will see how good he really is with Sanchez as his QB..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

So Mad Max McCaffery has been shining.. Hmmmmm

 

[iknowftbll]

Every now and then I check in on this conversation and read but don't react. Since I've been doing a little more reading on the Raiders the past couple days I think it's time to weigh in. Especially on this post.

Fox and JDR had some pretty good Bronco teams on both sides of the ball.. The bad news for you guys was PM being PM and choking in the big game, that's no secret dude.. Then you guys ran into a young super talented team in Seattle that was just the better all around team.. Noway you guys could of beat them, none!!

There's no way to know what may have happened had the Broncos gone into that game at full strength on defense. But here's the catch: I don't need to speculate because I am capable of giving credit where it's due. The Seahawks played a fantastic game and came in prepared where Fox and Del Rio's Broncos did not. They deserved the win hands down. That performance in that game and the ensuing season, culminating with one of the most lackluster and void of effort playoff appearances I've seen out of any team (Broncos vs Colts) set the stages for the Broncos third Super Bowl win. Nobody likes to see their team get railed in the Super Bowl, and Raiders fans know what that's like too. A loaded Raiders team got ran over by a team everyone said they'd beat. The difference between the Broncos and Raiders is the Broncos didn't stay down. The Raiders...yeah they're "enjoying" a period of futility that rivals the Broncos from their inception to their first playoff season in 1977. Meanwhile with their eighth Conference Title and third Super Bowl win, the Broncos have surpassed the Raiders as the premier franchise in the AFC West.

And why no mention of Osweiler cd?? He did go 5-2 as the starter for you guys, and played pretty good..
Heck ask any division rival who they were happy to see leave you guys?? Osweiler that's who, not Malik, DT,etc but Osweiler.. Again cd, PM did more for you guys than you want to give credit for, not to metion Osweiler..

Osweiler's performance in a 5-2 stretch with the Broncos was marginally better than Manning's. In both cases the defense largely carried the team. This supports CD's point: Wade Philips came in and did something far more impressive than Fox or JDR could manage with the same group of guys. And Philips did it without the benefit of a top flight offense relieving pressure. Even under Osweiler the Broncos struggled mightily on offense, with three consecutive games in which they were shut out in the second half. He may go on to do well with the Texans. Truthfully I wish him well: he was a big part of our SB win and had the Broncos signed him I'd have been excited about the team's future. With that said, I believe there is something to the "hurt feelings" talk that is going around, and while I don't really follow or engage in those discussions, I have no interest in a player who can't see the team above his own personal ambition. In the aftermath of a SB win, Kubiak's decision to pull Osweiler for Manning was validated. If Osweiler can't see that, he isn't the right guy for the Broncos. This isn't and never was about him: it's about the Broncos.

We can debate the merits of the QB situation in Denver in 2016, and even the rookie Lynch is no sure thing. But the Broncos appear to have put themselves in a situation to contend short term and long term. If you think this team is just going away in 2016, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Lastly, as for asking any rival "who they were happy to see leave" it's worth noting rivals have been wrong before. In fact, I recall a lot of Raiders, Chiefs, and Chargers fans all salivating at the thought of John Elway returning to the Broncos in a front office capacity.

And as for Kubiak Texan days?? Dude had a loaded roster every year.. There was a reason why they fired him and Phillips cd.. A so called top 5 coach don't get fired when their starting QB goes down to injury dude..
He got fired cuz he simply was not very good with the Texans.. He was average best with the Texans..
And truth be told, i was not impressed with him in Denver either.. Again average..
Now, can he get better?? Of course, anybody can!!
You will not win with pure D this year cd like last year.. So we will see how good he really is with Sanchez as his QB..

To say he had a loaded roster "every year" is a bit of a stretch. The new franchise was in dismal shape when he arrived in 2006. He built it into a decent team then the bottom fell out. His tenure in Houston is comparable, even slightly better than JDR's in Jacksonville. And you can be as unimpressed as you want with his first season in Denver. Personally I'll take 12-4 and a Super Bowl win over 7-9 and extending the futility of a franchise another year, but that's just me.

And I do agree: the Broncos won't win on D alone in 2016. They'll beat teams with offense and defense this year.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Every now and then I check in on this conversation and read but don't react. Since I've been doing a little more reading on the Raiders the past couple days I think it's time to weigh in. Especially on this post.



There's no way to know what may have happened had the Broncos gone into that game at full strength on defense. But here's the catch: I don't need to speculate because I am capable of giving credit where it's due. The Seahawks played a fantastic game and came in prepared where Fox and Del Rio's Broncos did not. They deserved the win hands down. That performance in that game and the ensuing season, culminating with one of the most lackluster and void of effort playoff appearances I've seen out of any team (Broncos vs Colts) set the stages for the Broncos third Super Bowl win. Nobody likes to see their team get railed in the Super Bowl, and Raiders fans know what that's like too. A loaded Raiders team got ran over by a team everyone said they'd beat. The difference between the Broncos and Raiders is the Broncos didn't stay down. The Raiders...yeah they're "enjoying" a period of futility that rivals the Broncos from their inception to their first playoff season in 1977. Meanwhile with their eighth Conference Title and third Super Bowl win, the Broncos have surpassed the Raiders as the premier franchise in the AFC West.



Osweiler's performance in a 5-2 stretch with the Broncos was marginally better than Manning's. In both cases the defense largely carried the team. This supports CD's point: Wade Philips came in and did something far more impressive than Fox or JDR could manage with the same group of guys. And Philips did it without the benefit of a top flight offense relieving pressure. Even under Osweiler the Broncos struggled mightily on offense, with three consecutive games in which they were shut out in the second half. He may go on to do well with the Texans. Truthfully I wish him well: he was a big part of our SB win and had the Broncos signed him I'd have been excited about the team's future. With that said, I believe there is something to the "hurt feelings" talk that is going around, and while I don't really follow or engage in those discussions, I have no interest in a player who can't see the team above his own personal ambition. In the aftermath of a SB win, Kubiak's decision to pull Osweiler for Manning was validated. If Osweiler can't see that, he isn't the right guy for the Broncos. This isn't and never was about him: it's about the Broncos.

We can debate the merits of the QB situation in Denver in 2016, and even the rookie Lynch is no sure thing. But the Broncos appear to have put themselves in a situation to contend short term and long term. If you think this team is just going away in 2016, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Lastly, as for asking any rival "who they were happy to see leave" it's worth noting rivals have been wrong before. In fact, I recall a lot of Raiders, Chiefs, and Chargers fans all salivating at the thought of John Elway returning to the Broncos in a front office capacity.



To say he had a loaded roster "every year" is a bit of a stretch. The new franchise was in dismal shape when he arrived in 2006. He built it into a decent team then the bottom fell out. His tenure in Houston is comparable, even slightly better than JDR's in Jacksonville. And you can be as unimpressed as you want with his first season in Denver. Personally I'll take 12-4 and a Super Bowl win over 7-9 and extending the futility of a franchise another year, but that's just me.

And I do agree: the Broncos won't win on D alone in 2016. They'll beat teams with offense and defense this year.

Well well well, the return of iknowfootball to the RAIDER Board.. Welcome!!

Dude, Seattle was just the better all around team by far, and i mean by far.. It don't matter who was coaching you guys, or how you prepared Denver was.. You were not going to beat that team.. Noway man..
Now i did pick Denver over the Panthers knowing Ginn and Olsen were not going to break your secondary..
That Seattle team, nah!!

And as for Oswieler?? Did he not look super beating the Pats in that must win game for you guys??
My, how fast you guys forget.. Like i said, i stand by division rivals happy to see him go..
But he no longer is on your team so he must suck eh?? Ask Elway if he feels the same, he just got outbid for him.. That's what happens when you have no Cap $$$..

And as for Kubiak with the Texans?? How much talent did he need to win there??
Pro Bowl QB, All Pro RB, a great ZBS OL, and the best D player in the world in JJ Watt, backed by some good talent all around.. Loaded roster!!

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Well well well, the return of iknowfootball to the RAIDER Board.. Welcome!!

Dude, Seattle was just the better all around team by far, and i mean by far.. It don't matter who was coaching you guys, or how you prepared Denver was.. You were not going to beat that team.. Noway man..
Now i did pick Denver over the Panthers knowing Ginn and Olsen were not going to break your secondary..
That Seattle team, nah!!

And as for Oswieler?? Did he not look super beating the Pats in that must win game for you guys??
My, how fast you guys forget.. Like i said, i stand by division rivals happy to see him go..
But he no longer is on your team so he must suck eh?? Ask Elway if he feels the same, he just got outbid for him.. That's what happens when you have no Cap $$$..

And as for Kubiak with the Texans?? How much talent did he need to win there??
Pro Bowl QB, All Pro RB, a great ZBS OL, and the best D player in the world in JJ Watt, backed by some good talent all around.. Loaded roster!!

And now Elway is trying to lowball Von Miller, just like he did Osweiler.. Smh

 

[iknowftbll]

Well well well, the return of iknowfootball to the RAIDER Board.. Welcome!!

You are too kind!

Dude, Seattle was just the better all around team by far, and i mean by far.. It don't matter who was coaching you guys, or how you prepared Denver was.. You were not going to beat that team.. Noway man..
Now i did pick Denver over the Panthers knowing Ginn and Olsen were not going to break your secondary..
That Seattle team, nah!!

Like I said, I can give Seattle a lot of credit for their win. Maybe they win either way, but one thing that cannot be denied is Fox did not have the Broncos adequately prepared. Credit Seattle for taking the biggest game in their franchise's history seriously, and shame on Fox for his failure to do so. Credit the Broncos for reinventing themselves and flipping the script on the Panthers just two seasons later.

And as for Oswieler?? Did he not look super beating the Pats in that must win game for you guys??
My, how fast you guys forget.. Like i said, i stand by division rivals happy to see him go..
But he no longer is on your team so he must suck eh?? Ask Elway if he feels the same, he just got outbid for him.. That's what happens when you have no Cap $$$..

Osweiler did play a good game against the Patriots, but it's only a "must win" in the aftermath of the complete season. The same Osweiler who played so well against the Patriots folded in the second half against the Chargers, Raiders, and Steelers, resulting in a 1-2 finish in three otherwise winnable games. In light of these 2 losses people will look back on that Patriots game as a "must win" but in the context of the week in which it was played it was not considered such. I definitely credit his play in that game, and I believe he will definitely improve with more time as a starter, but to look at his production in his 7 starts it was pedestrian at best.

A year from now you guys are all going to be glad to see Sanchez go, too.

And as for Kubiak with the Texans?? How much talent did he need to win there??
Pro Bowl QB, All Pro RB, a great ZBS OL, and the best D player in the world in JJ Watt, backed by some good talent all around.. Loaded roster!!

Kubiak started with the Texans in 2006. He didn't have any of that talent there. The success they did have with him was success that he built from the ground up. And limited as that success was, it was still more extensive than JDR's with the Jaguars.

 

[cdumler7]

Fox and JDR had some pretty good Bronco teams on both sides of the ball.. The bad news for you guys was PM being PM and choking in the big game, that's no secret dude.. Then you guys ran into a young super talented team in Seattle that was just the better all around team.. Noway you guys could of beat them, none!!

And why no mention of Osweiler cd?? He did go 5-2 as the starter for you guys, and played pretty good..
Heck ask any division rival who they were happy to see leave you guys?? Osweiler that's who, not Malik, DT,etc but Osweiler.. Again cd, PM did more for you guys than you want to give credit for, not to metion Osweiler..

And as for Kubiak Texan days?? Dude had a loaded roster every year.. There was a reason why they fired him and Phillips cd.. A so called top 5 coach don't get fired when their starting QB goes down to injury dude..
He got fired cuz he simply was not very good with the Texans.. He was average best with the Texans..
And truth be told, i was not impressed with him in Denver either.. Again average..
Now, can he get better?? Of course, anybody can!!
You will not win with pure D this year cd like last year.. So we will see how good he really is with Sanchez as his QB..

Peyton Manning choking...That is why we lost all those playoff games? Hmmm well let's just look. In the playoff games we lost since Fox took over we averaged on defense giving up 37.5 points per game. That if played out in the regular season would be the worst defense in all of football by more than a touchdown. So you can say Manning is why we lost those games but well it wouldn't be true. He was up and down in those games but he was far from the only reason we lost those games.

Also as IKF said Seattle deserves all the credit in the world but there is no excuse for losing in that embarrassing way. IF we lost by a touchdown or even 2 I could be a bit more understanding. When you lose 43-8 though your team was not prepared in the least bit. Players have already said over and over again how unprepared for that game they were. So unless you want to argue with the players themselves that is not an argument you are going to win Idaho.

Why no mention of Osweiler...Well for the most part he was playing just a hair above what Manning was at QB. The defense continued to be why we won games. Osweiler made some plays. Don't want to take that away from him but he also was a huge reason we lost some very winnable games. When teams adjusted Osweiler struggled big time in the 2nd halves of games.

And Kubiak and the Texans he had 2 years you could argue he had a very good roster that stood a chance. Otherwise his team was in rebuild mode. He took over a 2-14 team. They had the 1st pick in the draft and had never had a winning season ever at that point. So not like day 1 did he have a great roster to work with that he should have been winning Super Bowls. His best year though again and I don't know why you continue to ignore this his starting QB and back up QB were injured before the playoffs came around. Schaub that Pro Bowl QB went down week 10. Then Leinart went down in week 11 of that season. So 3rd string guy being asked to go out and win in the playoffs. IF Carr goes down and then your back up goes down do you really think your team is even a playoff caliber team? Why in the world is that not be discussed here Idaho?
The next year they did go 12-4 but they still only finished 3rd in the AFC behind Denver and New England. So they went on the road and lost to the Patriots. They lost to a higher ranked team. So to sit here and say they were a loaded team is ignoring the fact that there were a lot of other great teams in the AFC that year as well. We are talking 3 teams that were 12-4 or better that year.

And man Idaho honestly just time to be done with this conversation. I mean if Kubiak was average as a Coach and won a SUper Bowl only giving average ability man I can't wait to see what he does as he grows in the position. I'm sorry but any time a team wins a Super Bowl the HC had to make some good decisions along the way that completely changed the outcome of the season.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Dang man!! Now i got cd and iknowfootball coming at me!! That's alot of fire power!! But my Armor is pretty strong..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

You are too kind!



Like I said, I can give Seattle a lot of credit for their win. Maybe they win either way, but one thing that cannot be denied is Fox did not have the Broncos adequately prepared. Credit Seattle for taking the biggest game in their franchise's history seriously, and shame on Fox for his failure to do so. Credit the Broncos for reinventing themselves and flipping the script on the Panthers just two seasons later.



Osweiler did play a good game against the Patriots, but it's only a "must win" in the aftermath of the complete season. The same Osweiler who played so well against the Patriots folded in the second half against the Chargers, Raiders, and Steelers, resulting in a 1-2 finish in three otherwise winnable games. In light of these 2 losses people will look back on that Patriots game as a "must win" but in the context of the week in which it was played it was not considered such. I definitely credit his play in that game, and I believe he will definitely improve with more time as a starter, but to look at his production in his 7 starts it was pedestrian at best.

A year from now you guys are all going to be glad to see Sanchez go, too.



Kubiak started with the Texans in 2006. He didn't have any of that talent there. The success they did have with him was success that he built from the ground up. And limited as that success was, it was still more extensive than JDR's with the Jaguars.

For some reason i think your a Doctor..

Fox did have his team prepared for that game imo.. Seattle was just the better team all around.. There was nothing that could of been done to beat that Seattle team, nothing..
It was the same way with the Panthers, nothing they could of done to beat you guys.. It's not about being prepared to play.. It's about playing the better team..

And as for Osweiler?? He went 5-2 as the starter for you guys and looked promising.. Again, this was almost like him being a rookie.. First time starting playing division rivals, cmon man that ain't easy and you know it..
Division rivals were happy to see him go.. Why?? Young player that was groomed behind one of the greats of the game.. Came in and started, and WON!!
Now as for Sanchez?? Eh, i will wait to see.. We all know about Sanchez though.. But, i did want Sanchez there for a bit when we were QB hunting, so there is that, lol

When Kubiak was with the Texans, he always had some good team just couldn't win so they fired him.. Thhat goes for JDR as well.. They are the same guy.. Both are good coaches with room to grow!!

 

[cdumler7]

For some reason i think your a Doctor..

Fox did have his team prepared for that game imo.. Seattle was just the better team all around.. There was nothing that could of been done to beat that Seattle team, nothing..
It was the same way with the Panthers, nothing they could of done to beat you guys.. It's not about being prepared to play.. It's about playing the better team..

And as for Osweiler?? He went 5-2 as the starter for you guys and looked promising.. Again, this was almost like him being a rookie.. First time starting playing division rivals, cmon man that ain't easy and you know it..
Division rivals were happy to see him go.. Why?? Young player that was groomed behind one of the greats of the game.. Came in and started, and WON!!
Now as for Sanchez?? Eh, i will wait to see.. We all know about Sanchez though.. But, i did want Sanchez there for a bit when we were QB hunting, so there is that, lol

When Kubiak was with the Texans, he always had some good team just couldn't win so they fired him.. Thhat goes for JDR as well.. They are the same guy.. Both are good coaches with room to grow!!

There is a difference between losing a game and losing 43-8 though here Idaho. And again when players after the game come out publicly and talk about how they were not prepared for the game and coaches afterwards publicly talking about how they did not do enough to prepare for the game and on top of that John Elway came out and said the team was not prepared and that he was disappointed in what happened and kept apologizing to the fans for what was shown in that game. So you can say all you want that they were prepared but the Broncos themselves would say completely opposite.

Osweiler the issue is not did he show some promise. Yes he showed some promise. The issue though is did he show enough to get $18 million a year and destroy your cap space. Right now looking at this off season that would mean we probably don't sign Okung, Stephenson, CJ Anderson, Garrett Graham, Jared Crick, and others. So we are talking about the Broncos having Osweiler an unproven QB that was very up and down in his 7 starts and really struggled over his final 3 games when teams had some film on him or depth across the team at a lot of key positions with proven starters. This is not just a black and white situation hey Osweiler showed some promise so we should sign him. This is you have to take into consideration his contract and whether that was worth it especially knowing the kind of contract you are going to have to hand out to Von Miller sometime this off season. The Broncos honestly won the Super Bowl in big part because they had such a deep team especially on the defensive side of the ball. We could have even our 3rd string guys come in and perform at a very high level. Heck Ike Taylor on NFL Network said that our 3rd Corner on our team is one of the top-5 most impactful Corners in the game right now. With our offense struggling so much last year the reason our defense kept showing up strong week after week is because we could substitute and give guys breaks.

This again is why I say Kubiak did an incredible job in the off season that showed up in the regular season. Not every team is doing this Idaho but Kubiak at least once a week was giving veterans the day off. Sometimes 2 times a week especially during the off season to save them for the season. He talks about how he learned this from his time with Baltimore. He didn't do this when he was with the Texans. If they were healthy they practiced where with the Broncos even if they were healthy he gave them a day of rest to save their bodies plus give the 2nd and 3rd string guys more reps. Again that showed up in the season.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Peyton Manning choking...That is why we lost all those playoff games? Hmmm well let's just look. In the playoff games we lost since Fox took over we averaged on defense giving up 37.5 points per game. That if played out in the regular season would be the worst defense in all of football by more than a touchdown. So you can say Manning is why we lost those games but well it wouldn't be true. He was up and down in those games but he was far from the only reason we lost those games.

Also as IKF said Seattle deserves all the credit in the world but there is no excuse for losing in that embarrassing way. IF we lost by a touchdown or even 2 I could be a bit more understanding. When you lose 43-8 though your team was not prepared in the least bit. Players have already said over and over again how unprepared for that game they were. So unless you want to argue with the players themselves that is not an argument you are going to win Idaho.

Why no mention of Osweiler...Well for the most part he was playing just a hair above what Manning was at QB. The defense continued to be why we won games. Osweiler made some plays. Don't want to take that away from him but he also was a huge reason we lost some very winnable games. When teams adjusted Osweiler struggled big time in the 2nd halves of games.

And Kubiak and the Texans he had 2 years you could argue he had a very good roster that stood a chance. Otherwise his team was in rebuild mode. He took over a 2-14 team. They had the 1st pick in the draft and had never had a winning season ever at that point. So not like day 1 did he have a great roster to work with that he should have been winning Super Bowls. His best year though again and I don't know why you continue to ignore this his starting QB and back up QB were injured before the playoffs came around. Schaub that Pro Bowl QB went down week 10. Then Leinart went down in week 11 of that season. So 3rd string guy being asked to go out and win in the playoffs. IF Carr goes down and then your back up goes down do you really think your team is even a playoff caliber team? Why in the world is that not be discussed here Idaho?
The next year they did go 12-4 but they still only finished 3rd in the AFC behind Denver and New England. So they went on the road and lost to the Patriots. They lost to a higher ranked team. So to sit here and say they were a loaded team is ignoring the fact that there were a lot of other great teams in the AFC that year as well. We are talking 3 teams that were 12-4 or better that year.

And man Idaho honestly just time to be done with this conversation. I mean if Kubiak was average as a Coach and won a SUper Bowl only giving average ability man I can't wait to see what he does as he grows in the position. I'm sorry but any time a team wins a Super Bowl the HC had to make some good decisions along the way that completely changed the outcome of the season.

Just like i told iknowfootball cd, Seattle was just the better team all around!! It started with the first play of the game and it went down hill from there.. The momentum was just to much to over come..

And cd, i just explained to iknowfotball what i think about Osweiler, and how it went down..
Again, here we have what is pretty much a rookie QB in the young Osweiler playing in a new system with new coaches.. Of course he was going to make mistakes!! But he also went 5-2 as a starter for you guys, those are the facts right there cd.. Heck the Texans seen enough of him to give him a HUGE contract..
And why should they of not?? Young, groomed behind one of the greats and went 5-2 as the starter..

And im ready for this talk to end as well, and talk about why you are going to WIN the AFCW??
And i just give Phillips the credit for that SB over that of Kubiak cd.. That's how i see it..
Look dude.. I have said plenty of times that Kubiak is a good coach, but you want more than that from me.. He's just not an elite coach as of now cd is the way i see it..

 

[cdumler7]

Just like i told iknowfootball cd, Seattle was just the better team all around!! It started with the first play of the game and it went down hill from there.. The momentum was just to much to over come..

And cd, i just explained to iknowfotball what i think about Osweiler, and how it went down..
Again, here we have what is pretty much a rookie QB in the young Osweiler playing in a new system with new coaches.. Of course he was going to make mistakes!! But he also went 5-2 as a starter for you guys, those are the facts right there cd.. Heck the Texans seen enough of him to give him a HUGE contract..
And why should they of not?? Young, groomed behind one of the greats and went 5-2 as the starter..

And im ready for this talk to end as well, and talk about why you are going to WIN the AFCW??
And i just give Phillips the credit for that SB over that of Kubiak cd.. That's how i see it..
Look dude.. I have said plenty of times that Kubiak is a good coach, but you want more than that from me.. He's just not an elite coach as of now cd is the way i see it..

See here is the problem you have Idaho. You get caught up in one thing and ignore the fact that there is a bigger picture at play. Such as with Osweiler all you focus on is the fact that the record while he was starting was 5-2. The 2000 Baltimore Ravens went 12-4 and at one point with Trent Dilfer as their QB won 7 straight games. Do you consider Dilfer a great QB? I mean if we are going by your way of assessing QB's then Dilfer is a great QB because the team won a bunch of games with him as the starter. Let's go opposite of that and look at your boy Carr...Is he a terrible QB because the Raiders have lost a ton of games with him starting? You see how just looking at record doesn't pain the best picture.

With Osweiler we can look at the fact that the offense when he was in finished bottom 7 in scoring on average as an offense. We can look at the fact that in almost every game he started the offense didn't score a single point in the 2nd half of games. We can look at the fact that in one of those wins that he is credited with he was benched because the team was doing bad and Peyton came in and the team ended up winning the game. So in reality 4-2 is a better way of looking at his record. We can look at the fact that as defenses got more film on him the offense struggled more with the more starts he got.

On top of that the biggest thing with Osweiler is the giant contract he got. A player that played below average stats wise, the offense struggled with him as the starter, and he ended up getting benched are you really ok with the idea of wanting to pay him huge money at the expense of a lot of other players that either helped you win the Super Bowl or guys that can come in and help you maintain some great depth across the board?

Here is the problem I have Idaho is not that you don't call him elite. What I have a problem with is you keep changing what he is. At one point you tell me he is around 10th best in the league and a good coach as you just posted in this thread. Then other times you call him average and was just along for the ride to winning the Super Bowl and lucked into getting a ring. Those are two very different things in my opinion Idaho.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

See here is the problem you have Idaho. You get caught up in one thing and ignore the fact that there is a bigger picture at play. Such as with Osweiler all you focus on is the fact that the record while he was starting was 5-2. The 2000 Baltimore Ravens went 12-4 and at one point with Trent Dilfer as their QB won 7 straight games. Do you consider Dilfer a great QB? I mean if we are going by your way of assessing QB's then Dilfer is a great QB because the team won a bunch of games with him as the starter. Let's go opposite of that and look at your boy Carr...Is he a terrible QB because the Raiders have lost a ton of games with him starting? You see how just looking at record doesn't pain the best picture.

With Osweiler we can look at the fact that the offense when he was in finished bottom 7 in scoring on average as an offense. We can look at the fact that in almost every game he started the offense didn't score a single point in the 2nd half of games. We can look at the fact that in one of those wins that he is credited with he was benched because the team was doing bad and Peyton came in and the team ended up winning the game. So in reality 4-2 is a better way of looking at his record. We can look at the fact that as defenses got more film on him the offense struggled more with the more starts he got.

On top of that the biggest thing with Osweiler is the giant contract he got. A player that played below average stats wise, the offense struggled with him as the starter, and he ended up getting benched are you really ok with the idea of wanting to pay him huge money at the expense of a lot of other players that either helped you win the Super Bowl or guys that can come in and help you maintain some great depth across the board?

Here is the problem I have Idaho is not that you don't call him elite. What I have a problem with is you keep changing what he is. At one point you tell me he is around 10th best in the league and a good coach as you just posted in this thread. Then other times you call him average and was just along for the ride to winning the Super Bowl and lucked into getting a ring. Those are two very different things in my opinion Idaho.

You just can't compare Osweiler to Trent Dilfer cd.. Osweiler was groomed behind PM to be the future of the Denver Broncos.. And when he got his chance he showed that he belonged!! Osweiler is a young QB that just needed more reps to grow into the franchise QB.. You can't just judge him based on the limited time starting for you guys, but you could see the potential in him.. He LOOKED promising man, so promising that the Texans paid him big money..

And i told you that Kubiak is a good coach.. And when i said average, well that is what being rank around 10 is..
Again cd, like JDR, Kubiak is young and they can get better as coaches and their rank will go up.. They both have room to grow..

 

[cdumler7]

You just can't compare Osweiler to Trent Dilfer cd.. Osweiler was groomed behind PM to be the future of the Denver Broncos.. And when he got his chance he showed that he belonged!! Osweiler is a young QB that just needed more reps to grow into the franchise QB.. You can't just judge him based on the limited time starting for you guys, but you could see the potential in him.. He LOOKED promising man, so promising that the Texans paid him big money..

And i told you that Kubiak is a good coach.. And when i said average, well that is what being rank around 10 is..
Again cd, like JDR, Kubiak is young and they can get better as coaches and their rank will go up.. They both have room to grow..

You can see how I would get confused though when you are going back and forth between average and good as the word you use to describe him. To me those two words have two different meanings.

As for Osweiler I'm not saying he doesn't have promise. Again Idaho you are missing the big picture though. Did he show enough to garner a deal worth $18 million or more with just 7 starts. You have to remember the Broncos saw Osweiler for 4 years. If the team that drafted you and has been grooming you for so long isn't willing to go up that high for a contract that should tell you something. I do think the Broncos liked Osweiler. They wouldn't have tried to sign him if they didn't but they were not in love with him otherwise they would have done whatever it takes to keep him on the team. They wanted to give him a prove it type deal where give him a couple more years worth of starting then sign him to the giant deal if he showed that he could be that franchise QB.

And Idaho I am not just judging Osweiler on his 7 starts. You are the one that is judging him pretty much just on his record alone in those 7 starts. I'm trying to get you to see the bigger picture that includes practice time in those 4 years, how he actually performed in those starts, contract value compared to what the player has shown, and then also overall roster to make sure he is worth that kind of money because you are sacrificing a lot of depth to sign him.

I'm looking at this from those who have watched him take almost every single throw in practice, preseason, and beyond. Some of the top guys who watch practice every single day have wrote that he wasn't worth that money and are glad the Broncos didn't sign him to that deal. That doesn't mean he is a bad QB just not worth that kind of money. I can also as a fan see how he has grown from his rookie year playing in preseason to this last year in preseason where honestly there wasn't much change. There were some things he was doing better obviously but to me you expect huge leaps in ability after being behind Manning all these years and it just wasn't there.

 

[cdumler7]

Also don't forget Dilfer was a 1st round QB so not like he didn't have promise as well when he entered the league. He actually went to a Pro Bowl in 1997. I still doubt though that many today would credit the Ravens winning the Super Bowl or winning all those games to that of Dilfer and what he did on the field. Same with Osweiler. He made some throws just like Dilfer did that year as well for the Ravens but most of the credit still goes to the defense of why they won.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

You can see how I would get confused though when you are going back and forth between average and good as the word you use to describe him. To me those two words have two different meanings.

As for Osweiler I'm not saying he doesn't have promise. Again Idaho you are missing the big picture though. Did he show enough to garner a deal worth $18 million or more with just 7 starts. You have to remember the Broncos saw Osweiler for 4 years. If the team that drafted you and has been grooming you for so long isn't willing to go up that high for a contract that should tell you something. I do think the Broncos liked Osweiler. They wouldn't have tried to sign him if they didn't but they were not in love with him otherwise they would have done whatever it takes to keep him on the team. They wanted to give him a prove it type deal where give him a couple more years worth of starting then sign him to the giant deal if he showed that he could be that franchise QB.

And Idaho I am not just judging Osweiler on his 7 starts. You are the one that is judging him pretty much just on his record alone in those 7 starts. I'm trying to get you to see the bigger picture that includes practice time in those 4 years, how he actually performed in those starts, contract value compared to what the player has shown, and then also overall roster to make sure he is worth that kind of money because you are sacrificing a lot of depth to sign him.

I'm looking at this from those who have watched him take almost every single throw in practice, preseason, and beyond. Some of the top guys who watch practice every single day have wrote that he wasn't worth that money and are glad the Broncos didn't sign him to that deal. That doesn't mean he is a bad QB just not worth that kind of money. I can also as a fan see how he has grown from his rookie year playing in preseason to this last year in preseason where honestly there wasn't much change. There were some things he was doing better obviously but to me you expect huge leaps in ability after being behind Manning all these years and it just wasn't there.

I think both JDR and Kubiak are good coaches that can grow into great ones.. Both are young and have the respect of the teams they coach.. It's the second time around for both of them.. One just won the SB the other has our young team as one of the favorites..

I see the big picture cd, i do.. But a young player can't get better till he plays in games, that is a fact.. The young Osweiler got his chance and didn't disappoint with his play for the most part.. Remember we are pretty much talking about a rookie here as far as playing time cd, not a young player that has played for a few years like Carr.. You had PM so Osweiler had to wait his turn.. So practice and all of that means nothing till he gets live reps cd.. And when he finally got his chance he played good, and went 5-2 as the starter, those too are facts..

What was the final offer for Osweiler cd?? 16M is what i read, or some sheet like that..
The thing here is Elway is starting to low ball his prized players cd.. He is starting to get a rep for that, which is not good if you want to get some GOOD FAs moving forward cd.. The Texans gave him the money man..While Elway was trying to low ball him..

 

[cdumler7]

I think both JDR and Kubiak are good coaches that can grow into great ones.. Both are young and have the respect of the teams they coach.. It's the second time around for both of them.. One just won the SB the other has our young team as one of the favorites..

I see the big picture cd, i do.. But a young player can't get better till he plays in games, that is a fact.. The young Osweiler got his chance and didn't disappoint with his play for the most part.. Remember we are pretty much talking about a rookie here as far as playing time cd, not a young player that has played for a few years like Carr.. You had PM so Osweiler had to wait his turn.. So practice and all of that means nothing till he gets live reps cd.. And when he finally got his chance he played good, and went 5-2 as the starter, those too are facts..

What was the final offer for Osweiler cd?? 16M is what i read, or some sheet like that..
The thing here is Elway is starting to low ball his prized players cd.. He is starting to get a rep for that, which is not good if you want to get some GOOD FAs moving forward cd.. The Texans gave him the money man..While Elway was trying to low ball him..

Couple of things here...

1) 5-2 as a starter is true...Played good is a whole other thing though. He actually played in 8 games this past year when Manning got benched against the Chiefs. In 4 of those games he was a very below average QB. I mean we are talking 75 QB rating and throwing more interceptions than touchdowns type thing. More hurtful to the team than helping. He then had two average games and then 2 good games. So while you say good I would say inconsistent. He again was helped by a defense holding teams to very low scoring totals taking a lot of pressure off him to have to be the man. Again he did have some moments like in the 4th quarter against the Patriots where he was a huge contributor. He also though through a very bad interception in that game though that gave the Patriots 7 points and couldn't move the offense until the 4th quarter. So the team was put in a huge hole in big part because he couldn't throw all that well.

As for lowballing. This is where I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. With Osweiler I guess you can say he lowballed him but maybe that is exactly where the Broncos had him valued. Osweiler was considered by PFF the worst off season signing of any team in the league. So not everybody in the league saw him as valuable as that of the Texans. The Broncos obviously didn't either.

And as for Von Miller they did not lowball him. The deal is very comparable to that of the 2nd highest paid defensive player in the league. They offered him the highest paid contract of any defensive player and offered him very close to the same type of guaranteed money as that of Dareus, Houston, and others. They were only a couple of million in guaranteed money behind a couple of those guys. This is part of negotiations. Von Miller's camp started at wanting $22 million a year. They are now down to $19 million a year. Broncos started at wanting to pay him $17 million a year and have moved up to $19 million a year. This is part of the negotiation process.

And also there is a reason Elway is considered a top-3 GM in the NFL by most everybody. HE has shown he knows what he is doing in both negotiations, the draft, and building a championship caliber team.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Couple of things here...

1) 5-2 as a starter is true...Played good is a whole other thing though. He actually played in 8 games this past year when Manning got benched against the Chiefs. In 4 of those games he was a very below average QB. I mean we are talking 75 QB rating and throwing more interceptions than touchdowns type thing. More hurtful to the team than helping. He then had two average games and then 2 good games. So while you say good I would say inconsistent. He again was helped by a defense holding teams to very low scoring totals taking a lot of pressure off him to have to be the man. Again he did have some moments like in the 4th quarter against the Patriots where he was a huge contributor. He also though through a very bad interception in that game though that gave the Patriots 7 points and couldn't move the offense until the 4th quarter. So the team was put in a huge hole in big part because he couldn't throw all that well.

As for lowballing. This is where I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. With Osweiler I guess you can say he lowballed him but maybe that is exactly where the Broncos had him valued. Osweiler was considered by PFF the worst off season signing of any team in the league. So not everybody in the league saw him as valuable as that of the Texans. The Broncos obviously didn't either.

And as for Von Miller they did not lowball him. The deal is very comparable to that of the 2nd highest paid defensive player in the league. They offered him the highest paid contract of any defensive player and offered him very close to the same type of guaranteed money as that of Dareus, Houston, and others. They were only a couple of million in guaranteed money behind a couple of those guys. This is part of negotiations. Von Miller's camp started at wanting $22 million a year. They are now down to $19 million a year. Broncos started at wanting to pay him $17 million a year and have moved up to $19 million a year. This is part of the negotiation process.

And also there is a reason Elway is considered a top-3 GM in the NFL by most everybody. HE has shown he knows what he is doing in both negotiations, the draft, and building a championship caliber team.

You trying to hard cd to discredit his play for you guys, way to hard..
The bottom line is he played really good for you guys, considering the guy was pretty much a rookie as far as playing time went.. Now i have no dog in this fight, cuz i really don't care about Osweiler im just happy he's not in Denver anymore.. But all Denver eyes WILL be on Osweiler and every pass he throws.. Man if he wins there, and Sanchez fails.. YIKES!! Well, i will care but for only one game.. MNF in Mexico City!!

And as for Von Miller?? A lot of reports out there, saying alot of different things.. You don't low ball prized players!! You will get a rep around the league real fast.. I seen some picks of Miller with with Mack, Crabs, and other RAIDER Players having a good time.. I bet Elway is pissed!!

And a top 3 GM cd?? Cmon man you don't believe that.. PM was the reason why you got those prime FAs cd..
His draft was rated poorly as well as his FA class.. Now i do think he's good, but top 3 im afraid not cd..
He just let his young potential franchise QB go and replaced him with Sanchez. and a super raw rookie QB..

Now i do think he's good cd,, so don't get mad.. He's just not top 3.. Now Reggie is top 3!! He built the RAIDERS from the ground up!! And i mean we were bottomed out!!

 

[cdumler7]

You trying to hard cd to discredit his play for you guys, way to hard..
The bottom line is he played really good for you guys, considering the guy was pretty much a rookie as far as playing time went.. Now i have no dog in this fight, cuz i really don't care about Osweiler im just happy he's not in Denver anymore.. But all Denver eyes WILL be on Osweiler and every pass he throws.. Man if he wins there, and Sanchez fails.. YIKES!! Well, i will care but for only one game.. MNF in Mexico City!!

And as for Von Miller?? A lot of reports out there, saying alot of different things.. You don't low ball prized players!! You will get a rep around the league real fast.. I seen some picks of Miller with with Mack, Crabs, and other RAIDER Players having a good time.. I bet Elway is pissed!!

And a top 3 GM cd?? Cmon man you don't believe that.. PM was the reason why you got those prime FAs cd..
His draft was rated poorly as well as his FA class.. Now i do think he's good, but top 3 im afraid not cd..
He just let his young potential franchise QB go and replaced him with Sanchez. and a super raw rookie QB..

Now i do think he's good cd,, so don't get mad.. He's just not top 3.. Now Reggie is top 3!! He built the RAIDERS from the ground up!! And i mean we were bottomed out!!

Idaho at this point just have to agree to disagree because just reading this makes my head spin. I mean the fact that you are saying a GM that has yet to even produce 1 let me say that again 1 winning season is somehow a top-3 GM over that of a guy that has never not won the division even though his team when he took over had just gone 4-12, was the laughing stock of the NFL, was considered the least talented team in the league, yet in 5 years was able to build up a team that won the division all 5 years, go to the Super Bowl twice, and win it once. But hey nope that isn't incredible but that of a guy who took a bottom feeding team and so far has kept them as a bottom feeding team is much better! Yup this makes sense. I mean not like the rumors of McKenzie being fired weren't swirling around and my guess is if the team doesn't win this year will be fired but hey yup he is much better than John Elway.

Time to move onto a different subject Idaho.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Idaho at this point just have to agree to disagree because just reading this makes my head spin. I mean the fact that you are saying a GM that has yet to even produce 1 let me say that again 1 winning season is somehow a top-3 GM over that of a guy that has never not won the division even though his team when he took over had just gone 4-12, was the laughing stock of the NFL, was considered the least talented team in the league, yet in 5 years was able to build up a team that won the division all 5 years, go to the Super Bowl twice, and win it once. But hey nope that isn't incredible but that of a guy who took a bottom feeding team and so far has kept them as a bottom feeding team is much better! Yup this makes sense. I mean not like the rumors of McKenzie being fired weren't swirling around and my guess is if the team doesn't win this year will be fired but hey yup he is much better than John Elway.

Time to move onto a different subject Idaho.

It makes your head spin cuz i don't agree with you man..
And the simple fact here cd is that Elway took over a way better team than Reggie did..
Elway went and got PM still in his prime who brought with him some really good FAs..
Reggie drafted his foundation pieces, then added to them.. So it's not the same kind of rebuild cd.. No matter how you look at it.. We didn't have PM for Carr to sit behind and learn from..
The whole league is praising Reggie and the work he's doing!! Fire him, ya ok..
I mean he just had another really good rated draft, along with the top FA class..
Again cd Elway is good but Reggie is better..