What do the RAIDERS need

[idahoraiderfan33]

Haha so them finishing with the 31st QB Rating in the league. Having the most turnovers of any QB grouping in the entire league. But hey yeah they are the reason we won. Had nothing to do with our #1 defense and our top-5 Special Teams unit. Yup all about the QB's and what they could do. I guess ignore the fact that in the Super Bowl we only had 1 conversion on 3rd down or the lowest yards of any Super Bowl winner ever. Let's ignore that Manning turned the ball over twice in that game with 0 touchdowns. Yup he should have been the MVP of the Super Bowl not Von Miller who forced 2 turnovers and caused havoc on the best offense in the NFL this past season. Idaho if we are going to discuss this we have to both work to be rational. Saying our QB's are why we won is not doing that. I just can't continue if that is what you think and I'll just go back to the Broncos board.

Cmon cd don't be silly here.. Of course the D played a big part in the season.. But make no mistake, PM and Osweiler were also a BIG part of that run.. But Hey?? Let's throw them under the bus cuz they no longer play for us right??

 

[cdumler7]

Cmon cd don't be silly here.. Of course the D played a big part in the season.. But make no mistake, PM and Osweiler were also a BIG part of that run.. But Hey?? Let's throw them under the bus cuz they no longer play for us right??

I'm not being silly. Manning actually lead the league in interceptions and that is with missing half the season. So then combine all of Osweiler's from when he played and the Broncos blew the other teams in the league in actual turnovers by a QB. Then on top of that no other team had more pick-6's thrown by their QB's than that of the Broncos. So to sit here and say they were a BIG part of us winning when in reality they were part of the reason we lost the games we did and almost cost us a few others because of giving points to the other team with terrible turnovers.

Just because they play the most important position on the field doesn't mean they actually were a BIG reason we won. In all of our losses except the Pittsburgh game honestly I can point directly to the QB's though for them costing us the game. Manning in his two losses threw a ton of interceptions that put us way behind from the very beginning. I mean the Chiefs game was actually the worst game any QB played this past season. So how can you say he was helping this team when he was directly the reason we lost to the Chiefs. Then Osweiler against you guys missed 3 wide open touchdowns that could have easily secured the win when the defense had the game all but wrapped up but the offense couldn't put up points.

So yeah I have a bit of trouble wanting to continue this conversation when you are trying to argue that the QB play we had this past year was a BIG reason we won football games. Believe me I love Manning and all he did for our team but this past year he had decided to stay in the league one too many years. He just could not hold up and became a huge liability. I mean when you have to bench a HOF player it should show just how bad they were doing.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I'm not being silly. Manning actually lead the league in interceptions and that is with missing half the season. So then combine all of Osweiler's from when he played and the Broncos blew the other teams in the league in actual turnovers by a QB. Then on top of that no other team had more pick-6's thrown by their QB's than that of the Broncos. So to sit here and say they were a BIG part of us winning when in reality they were part of the reason we lost the games we did and almost cost us a few others because of giving points to the other team with terrible turnovers.

Just because they play the most important position on the field doesn't mean they actually were a BIG reason we won. In all of our losses except the Pittsburgh game honestly I can point directly to the QB's though for them costing us the game. Manning in his two losses threw a ton of interceptions that put us way behind from the very beginning. I mean the Chiefs game was actually the worst game any QB played this past season. So how can you say he was helping this team when he was directly the reason we lost to the Chiefs. Then Osweiler against you guys missed 3 wide open touchdowns that could have easily secured the win when the defense had the game all but wrapped up but the offense couldn't put up points.

So yeah I have a bit of trouble wanting to continue this conversation when you are trying to argue that the QB play we had this past year was a BIG reason we won football games. Believe me I love Manning and all he did for our team but this past year he had decided to stay in the league one too many years. He just could not hold up and became a huge liability. I mean when you have to bench a HOF player it should show just how bad they were doing.

Why can't you give credit where it's belongs as well?? Smh.. Anyways cd?? You have Sanchez now, and not one of the greatest QBs to play the game, or his backup that was groomed to take his place.. No cd, you have Sanchez..

Anyways cd like i was saying, last year is over dude it matters no more.. Now what does matter is??
You guys have Sanchez and a shaky OL, as well as a D that took a hit in FA.. Not to mention everybody will have tape on Phillips D.. For some reason Wade Phillips always has a good D his first year or so, then it stinks and the dude gets fired..
Now let''s not forget that we went to Denver and beat Phillips D in his house with a young team..
And we added to our team with a top rated FA class, as well as a top rated Draft.. What did you guys do to improve your team cd??

Again cd, nobody knows how our seasons will play out.. No team is a lock!!

 

[cdumler7]

Why can't you give credit where it's belongs as well?? Smh.. Anyways cd?? You have Sanchez now, and not one of the greatest QBs to play the game, or his backup that was groomed to take his place.. No cd, you have Sanchez..

Anyways cd like i was saying, last year is over dude it matters no more.. Now what does matter is??
You guys have Sanchez and a shaky OL, as well as a D that took a hit in FA.. Not to mention everybody will have tape on Phillips D.. For some reason Wade Phillips always has a good D his first year or so, then it stinks and the dude gets fired..
Now let''s not forget that we went to Denver and beat Phillips D in his house with a young team..
And we added to our team with a top rated FA class, as well as a top rated Draft.. What did you guys do to improve your team cd??

Again cd, nobody knows how our seasons will play out.. No team is a lock!!

See again this is where it is a challenge. You make these wide sweeping statements that I have no idea where you get them from but they are not based in fact. Let's break this down by section...

1) Yes Peyton was one of the greatest to ever play the game. No argument from me and I loved his time in Denver. Having said that he was nowhere near the same QB this past season that he had been the rest of his career. He was bottom-3 in almost every single QB stat that there is this past year. If you look at this past year separately from the rest of his career you see a QB that shouldn't have been starting.

2) Yes we have Sanchez and I have never once said that he is this incredible QB that I expect to light the league on fire. I don't know what we will get from him honestly. He is our biggest question mark heading into this next season. Having said that Kubiak's scheme has proven to be a QB's best friend. Many QB's have seen a huge uptick in their career when Kubiak became their OC or HC. Doesn't mean Sanchez will have the same thing happen and honestly I don't even know if Sanchez will be our starter. Elway has spoken boldly about the Rookie in that he will be ready quicker than people think. Kubiak has also spoken most highly about Siemian our draft pick from last year. So have to wait and see who emerges.

3) OL is somewhat a question mark but at the same time the unit that was bottom 10 last year had 2 Tackles starting that were our 3rd string guys because of injuries. So now we actually have starting caliber players at each position. Throw in for each of them they have all been in the ZBS for at least a year or longer for guys like Okung that ran the ZBS in Seattle.

4) Phillips' defenses do not see this fall off that you speak of. His first DC job with NO. His first year they were 11th. The next 5th. The next year 2nd. The next 4th. So 4 straight years as a top-11 defense when he took over. (These stats are in overall defense).
Philly--17th, 23rd, 27th. Not his best coaching work
Denver--3rd, 20th, 5th, 22nd, 19th
Buffalo--13th, 9th, 9th, 6th, 1st, 3rd
San Diego--18th, 13th, 10th
Houston--2nd, 7th, 7th
Denver--1st

Denver and Philly early on as a DC are the only places you can argue he struggled at times to see growth in his defense. Otherwise he continued to have top-10 defenses almost every single year. Have to remember some of these were bottom 5 defense when he took over and in that 1st year almost always made them top-13 or so in the league. So again hard to take you serious when you just say things without anything to back them up other than your own thoughts.

Also you beat Phillips' defense scoring 15 points. Not like that is lighting up the scoreboard against them. That loss falls much more on the offense than that of the defense. You hold a team to 15 points or less you should win the majority of the time.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

See again this is where it is a challenge. You make these wide sweeping statements that I have no idea where you get them from but they are not based in fact. Let's break this down by section...

1) Yes Peyton was one of the greatest to ever play the game. No argument from me and I loved his time in Denver. Having said that he was nowhere near the same QB this past season that he had been the rest of his career. He was bottom-3 in almost every single QB stat that there is this past year. If you look at this past year separately from the rest of his career you see a QB that shouldn't have been starting.

2) Yes we have Sanchez and I have never once said that he is this incredible QB that I expect to light the league on fire. I don't know what we will get from him honestly. He is our biggest question mark heading into this next season. Having said that Kubiak's scheme has proven to be a QB's best friend. Many QB's have seen a huge uptick in their career when Kubiak became their OC or HC. Doesn't mean Sanchez will have the same thing happen and honestly I don't even know if Sanchez will be our starter. Elway has spoken boldly about the Rookie in that he will be ready quicker than people think. Kubiak has also spoken most highly about Siemian our draft pick from last year. So have to wait and see who emerges.

3) OL is somewhat a question mark but at the same time the unit that was bottom 10 last year had 2 Tackles starting that were our 3rd string guys because of injuries. So now we actually have starting caliber players at each position. Throw in for each of them they have all been in the ZBS for at least a year or longer for guys like Okung that ran the ZBS in Seattle.

4) Phillips' defenses do not see this fall off that you speak of. His first DC job with NO. His first year they were 11th. The next 5th. The next year 2nd. The next 4th. So 4 straight years as a top-11 defense when he took over. (These stats are in overall defense).
Philly--17th, 23rd, 27th. Not his best coaching work
Denver--3rd, 20th, 5th, 22nd, 19th
Buffalo--13th, 9th, 9th, 6th, 1st, 3rd
San Diego--18th, 13th, 10th
Houston--2nd, 7th, 7th
Denver--1st

Denver and Philly early on as a DC are the only places you can argue he struggled at times to see growth in his defense. Otherwise he continued to have top-10 defenses almost every single year. Have to remember some of these were bottom 5 defense when he took over and in that 1st year almost always made them top-13 or so in the league. So again hard to take you serious when you just say things without anything to back them up other than your own thoughts.

Also you beat Phillips' defense scoring 15 points. Not like that is lighting up the scoreboard against them. That loss falls much more on the offense than that of the defense. You hold a team to 15 points or less you should win the majority of the time.

cd again you are underselling the value PM brought to you guys last year, i don't give a sheet what the stats say..
And why no mention of Osweiler who went 5-2 as the starting QB for you guys eh?? Oh i get it though he's a nobody though right?? His play don't matter.. Well Elway offered what 16M for him and he said no!!
I get it though i do.. They don't play for you anymore so throw them in the gutter, we don't need them anyways..

And again cd you just made my case on Phillips.. Dude is good his first year or so then he gets fired..

 

[cdumler7]

cd again you are underselling the value PM brought to you guys last year, i don't give a sheet what the stats say..
And why no mention of Osweiler who went 5-2 as the starting QB for you guys eh?? Oh i get it though he's a nobody though right?? His play don't matter.. Well Elway offered what 16M for him and he said no!!
I get it though i do.. They don't play for you anymore so throw them in the gutter, we don't need them anyways..

And again cd you just made my case on Phillips.. Dude is good his first year or so then he gets fired..

I"m starting to think you don't even read what I post and just keep saying the same things over and over again. Osweiler was not 5-2. The Broncos were 5-2. Osweiler while he played better statistically still wasn't overwhelming. He still finished bottom-10 in most QB categories.

I guess you can keep believing the QB's made this incredible impact on our team. You can keep thinking that I am just being a homer and only now throwing them under the bus because they are not with us anymore. I and most Bronco fans were screaming for Manning to be benched. We were also screaming for Elway not to get too crazy in contract negotiations with Osweiler. I wanted to see what Osweiler could do with a full off season as the #1 QB for us but at the same time in those 7 games he was a below average QB so I didn't want us to mortgage our future for a guy that had proved nothing up to this point. In fact he had to get benched because he lost control of the huddle in a very critical game in week 17. The coaches did not like his attitude when things were not going perfect. Not a great thing when both of your starting QB's in the season get benched because of terrible play on the field.

And how did I make your case for Phillips? 15 of his 25 years as a DC he had a top-10 defense. In quite a few of the places he went his defense actually improved in year 2. Denver the first time around was the only place that he had a top-10 defense his first year then fell out of the top-10 the next year. Throw in that 1990 season where they saw such a huge drop off they lost their top player on defense. It would be like you guys losing Khalil Mack during the preseason. Do you think your defense would have some fall off if they lost him?

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I"m starting to think you don't even read what I post and just keep saying the same things over and over again. Osweiler was not 5-2. The Broncos were 5-2. Osweiler while he played better statistically still wasn't overwhelming. He still finished bottom-10 in most QB categories.

I guess you can keep believing the QB's made this incredible impact on our team. You can keep thinking that I am just being a homer and only now throwing them under the bus because they are not with us anymore. I and most Bronco fans were screaming for Manning to be benched. We were also screaming for Elway not to get too crazy in contract negotiations with Osweiler. I wanted to see what Osweiler could do with a full off season as the #1 QB for us but at the same time in those 7 games he was a below average QB so I didn't want us to mortgage our future for a guy that had proved nothing up to this point. In fact he had to get benched because he lost control of the huddle in a very critical game in week 17. The coaches did not like his attitude when things were not going perfect. Not a great thing when both of your starting QB's in the season get benched because of terrible play on the field.

And how did I make your case for Phillips? 15 of his 25 years as a DC he had a top-10 defense. In quite a few of the places he went his defense actually improved in year 2. Denver the first time around was the only place that he had a top-10 defense his first year then fell out of the top-10 the next year. Throw in that 1990 season where they saw such a huge drop off they lost their top player on defense. It would be like you guys losing Khalil Mack during the preseason. Do you think your defense would have some fall off if they lost him?

I do read what you say cd, i just don't agree with it all..
You can't have it both ways cd.. When you guys lost last year it was the QBs fault but when you guys won it was all the D right cd?? See, it don't work that way, you don't want to give PM and Osweiler credit for last year cuz they no longer play for you guys.. They did enough to make that run you guys got on last year.. It is what it is..

What did ELWAY offer Osweiler?? 16M per?? If so he don't agree with ya, he just couldn't afford him..

And as for Phillips?? The dude gets fired after a few years, why is that?? Now i understand when a key D players goes down it hurts, but that is not why teams fire DCs either..

 

[cdumler7]

I do read what you say cd, i just don't agree with it all..
You can't have it both ways cd.. When you guys lost last year it was the QBs fault but when you guys won it was all the D right cd?? See, it don't work that way, you don't want to give PM and Osweiler credit for last year cuz they no longer play for you guys.. They did enough to make that run you guys got on last year.. It is what it is..

What did ELWAY offer Osweiler?? 16M per?? If so he don't agree with ya, he just couldn't afford him..

And as for Phillips?? The dude gets fired after a few years, why is that?? Now i understand when a key D players goes down it hurts, but that is not why teams fire DCs either..

Ok let's tackle the Phillips thing here first.

1) Not all of his jobs was he actually fired from. When he was the DC in NO it was under his father being the HC. when his father stepped down as HC Phillips stepped in as Interim HC but then moved on after the season. They didn't fire him he just moved on from the job since his father was no longer on the team. Hard to stay with the team that just fired your dad.

With the Broncos he wasn't fired for his work with the defense. He actually got promoted to HC with the Broncos but then failed miserably as a HC and was fired. So his defensive work got him a HC job. It didn't get him fired.

He then moved onto Buffalo. He left Buffalo as a DC because he got hired as a HC for the Cowboys. So again not fired for his work as a DC.

He then was fired from the Cowboys as a HC again not DC.

Then in Houston he once again at the end of his time there took over as HC when Kubiak was fired. At the end of the year they decided to hire O'Brien instead of Phillips to be HC.

So I think only in Philly was he actually fired as a DC. All other jobs it was when he was a HC not a DC.

As for Osweiler again like I said I was hoping and I think Elway was hoping to see Osweiler get an entire season as our QB. The team had invested 4 years into the guy. They still were not willing to go too crazy just to keep him. The first offer they made was closer to $10 million a year for only 2-years. That to me shows much more what the Broncos actually put his value at to the team. They saw him as a guy they wanted to see more of. I think Osweiler can develop into a good QB in this league. He had moments when he started for us but it wasn't consistent. There were I think 3 or 4 games of his that he started that we got shut out in the 2nd half of the game. When teams made adjustments Osweiler struggled to adjust.

 

[cdumler7]

Also I never said the QB's didn't have moments that they actually helped the team. I would just say they hurt the team more than helped it in most games. I mean you can talk about all the intangibles that Manning brought to the team but I look at those Pick-6 plays that he had that allowed teams to stay in some very close games. I look at his 4 interception game in 1 half against the Chiefs with one of those being a pick 6 and all 4 of them being in Bronco territory leading to easy scores for the Chiefs as him costing us that game. I see the Indy game where Manning turned it over 2-3 times if I remember right and the Colts getting this huge 1st half lead because of defensive effort by the Colts and easy field position for their offense.

Now I will say the Pittsburgh game I put that one on the defense. The offense scored plenty of points. Yes the offense struggled in the 2nd half but the defense gave up too many big plays. Given both our starting Safeties were injured and then one of our back ups broke his leg in the 1st Quarter on late hit penalty by a Pittsburgh OL player.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Im done for the night dude.. But i will reply to this post..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Also I never said the QB's didn't have moments that they actually helped the team. I would just say they hurt the team more than helped it in most games. I mean you can talk about all the intangibles that Manning brought to the team but I look at those Pick-6 plays that he had that allowed teams to stay in some very close games. I look at his 4 interception game in 1 half against the Chiefs with one of those being a pick 6 and all 4 of them being in Bronco territory leading to easy scores for the Chiefs as him costing us that game. I see the Indy game where Manning turned it over 2-3 times if I remember right and the Colts getting this huge 1st half lead because of defensive effort by the Colts and easy field position for their offense.

Now I will say the Pittsburgh game I put that one on the defense. The offense scored plenty of points. Yes the offense struggled in the 2nd half but the defense gave up too many big plays. Given both our starting Safeties were injured and then one of our back ups broke his leg in the 1st Quarter on late hit penalty by a Pittsburgh OL player.

And this one..

 

[cdumler7]

Alright have a good night.

 

[Manster7588]

Not reading this full thread so I will apologize if this has been said. What the Raiders need is a new stadium, be it in Oakland, LA or Las Vegas.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Ok let's tackle the Phillips thing here first.

1) Not all of his jobs was he actually fired from. When he was the DC in NO it was under his father being the HC. when his father stepped down as HC Phillips stepped in as Interim HC but then moved on after the season. They didn't fire him he just moved on from the job since his father was no longer on the team. Hard to stay with the team that just fired your dad.

With the Broncos he wasn't fired for his work with the defense. He actually got promoted to HC with the Broncos but then failed miserably as a HC and was fired. So his defensive work got him a HC job. It didn't get him fired.

He then moved onto Buffalo. He left Buffalo as a DC because he got hired as a HC for the Cowboys. So again not fired for his work as a DC.

He then was fired from the Cowboys as a HC again not DC.

Then in Houston he once again at the end of his time there took over as HC when Kubiak was fired. At the end of the year they decided to hire O'Brien instead of Phillips to be HC.

So I think only in Philly was he actually fired as a DC. All other jobs it was when he was a HC not a DC.

As for Osweiler again like I said I was hoping and I think Elway was hoping to see Osweiler get an entire season as our QB. The team had invested 4 years into the guy. They still were not willing to go too crazy just to keep him. The first offer they made was closer to $10 million a year for only 2-years. That to me shows much more what the Broncos actually put his value at to the team. They saw him as a guy they wanted to see more of. I think Osweiler can develop into a good QB in this league. He had moments when he started for us but it wasn't consistent. There were I think 3 or 4 games of his that he started that we got shut out in the 2nd half of the game. When teams made adjustments Osweiler struggled to adjust.

cd, this is a long post that pretty much says, Wade Phillips gets fired a lot.. Now again cd the dude seems to always be good his first year then his teams seem to always fall off, be it as a HC or DC!!
Now, im not saying Phillips will stink this year not at all man.. But will his D play like it did last year minus some pretty good players he lost in FA, and with his history of being fired is the thing.. Personally i think your D will be ok but not at the level of last year.. Im afraid you will NEED great QB play to make the playoffs this year, and that is where Sanchez comes into this whole argument..

 

[cdumler7]

cd, this is a long post that pretty much says, Wade Phillips gets fired a lot.. Now again cd the dude seems to always be good his first year then his teams seem to always fall off, be it as a HC or DC!!
Now, im not saying Phillips will stink this year not at all man.. But will his D play like it did last year minus some pretty good players he lost in FA, and with his history of being fired is the thing.. Personally i think your D will be ok but not at the level of last year.. Im afraid you will NEED great QB play to make the playoffs this year, and that is where Sanchez comes into this whole argument..

See again this is why I don't think you actually read my posts because you keep saying that his 2nd year and beyond is so much worse. Well half the places he has worked the 2nd year was better than the 1st. 2 of the others that he finished top-5 in the 1st year still saw the defense end in the top-10 after that. So while there was a bit of a drop off they were still one of the elite defenses of the NFL.

Anyway you are not going to read this in entirety so going to stop.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

See again this is why I don't think you actually read my posts because you keep saying that his 2nd year and beyond is so much worse. Well half the places he has worked the 2nd year was better than the 1st. 2 of the others that he finished top-5 in the 1st year still saw the defense end in the top-10 after that. So while there was a bit of a drop off they were still one of the elite defenses of the NFL.

Anyway you are not going to read this in entirety so going to stop.

I do read what you have to say cd.. That's why i only debate you when i have time to blog, cuz i read everything you have to say.. I just don't agree with everything you have to say..
And like i said Phillips always seems to get fired after some years with the teams he is coaching, how am i wrong there??

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I do read what you have to say cd.. That's why i only debate you when i have time to blog, cuz i read everything you have to say.. I just don't agree with everything you have to say..
And like i said Phillips always seems to get fired after some years with the teams he is coaching, how am i wrong there??

And when coaches get fired, it means they ain't doing the job right??

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Im watching game 7 Dubs Vs Thunder!! Steph and Thompson are some of the best shooters i have ever seen!!

 

[cdumler7]

I do read what you have to say cd.. That's why i only debate you when i have time to blog, cuz i read everything you have to say.. I just don't agree with everything you have to say..
And like i said Phillips always seems to get fired after some years with the teams he is coaching, how am i wrong there??

You realize though there is a difference between being a Head Coach in the NFL and being a Defensive Coordinator right? There are guys in this league that are great Coordinators but terrible Head Coaches. A guy that will be in the HOF soon is Dick LeBeau who was the DC for Pittsburgh for so many years. I look at a guy like Rex Ryan who is probably the top defensive mind in football but honestly he is not a great Head Coach in my opinion. I would take him as my DC any day of the week though. So when Phillips is getting fired when he is the Head Coach compared to being the Defensive Coordinator that matters. Heck when Phillips came to Denver at his first press conference he made the joke that he is a terrible head coach but that he knows how to coach the heck out of a defense.

See to me what I see is a guy that does so well coaching defense at these places that they end up promoting him to Head Coach because they don't want to lose him to another place. He then becomes head coach and his teams don't do well. He isn't coaching the defense though when he is the Head Coach. He is having to coach all parts of the team. While he will have his say on the defensive side of the ball he is not the guy calling the plays or coming up with the entire game plan for the week.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

You realize though there is a difference between being a Head Coach in the NFL and being a Defensive Coordinator right? There are guys in this league that are great Coordinators but terrible Head Coaches. A guy that will be in the HOF soon is Dick LeBeau who was the DC for Pittsburgh for so many years. I look at a guy like Rex Ryan who is probably the top defensive mind in football but honestly he is not a great Head Coach in my opinion. I would take him as my DC any day of the week though. So when Phillips is getting fired when he is the Head Coach compared to being the Defensive Coordinator that matters. Heck when Phillips came to Denver at his first press conference he made the joke that he is a terrible head coach but that he knows how to coach the heck out of a defense.

See to me what I see is a guy that does so well coaching defense at these places that they end up promoting him to Head Coach because they don't want to lose him to another place. He then becomes head coach and his teams don't do well. He isn't coaching the defense though when he is the Head Coach. He is having to coach all parts of the team. While he will have his say on the defensive side of the ball he is not the guy calling the plays or coming up with the entire game plan for the week.

Who ya got Dubs or Cavs??

And i understand that a HC and DC is not the same thing dude.. But the HC coach in this case Phillips has control and even play his style of D cd, and still got fired.. Again cd, you think that im saying your D will stink this year, when i said it has a chance to be good, just not as good as last year.. And i gave you the reason why i think that.. I will be SHOCKED if your D is as good as it was last year..