Wentz or Goff

[SJ76]

So basically those "cupcake" SEC west teams that were over-rated played BAMA tougher than Sparty - the Big 10 champ who beat Oregon and undefeated Ohio St.

 

[Vitamike]

First, we are way off topic, but basically I said the SEC is a great conference in my last post, didn't I?

(I'm not saying they are not a great conference, just not as good as they are customarily rated week in and week out)

That said, this convo began with and continues for me to be about whether or not the PAC is a weak defensive conference or not. You keep getting into this battle of the SEC and the PAC and I'm just responding to your misinformation. I wouldn't argue if someone stated the PAC wasn't the strongest defensive conference, but I will argue against being a weak defensive conference. So I showed that ALL D1 conference defenses, (Including the P5) during Goff tenure, struggled just as much as the PAC defenses in head to head contests.

Second, the SEC West is not a conference, so the answer to your question below is 'NO'.

The SEC West is the best conference top to bottom in the NCAA right?

Third, when did I ever contest the end of the year total defensive rankings? I just don't think they are as useful in comparing conferences as head to head conference match-ups are. You know, looking at how these offenses and defenses actually played against one another.

To your example...

Here is the final outcome of the SEC West. Please show me how the Pac 12 can hold a candle to the SEC conference? This is a perfect example of how good this conference is. All but 1 team with a winning conference record and every team with an overall record above .500.

BAMA 7-1 conf / 14-1 overall
Ole Miss 6-2 / 10-3
Arkansas 5-3 / 8-5
LSU 5-3 / 9-3
A&M 4-4 / 8-5
Miss St 4-4 / 9-4
Auburn 2-6 / 7-6

Since the SEC West is not a conference, who are these teams you've listed beating? The records have to mathematically add up to zero when calculating conference wins and losses. When we do this, we get...
7+6+5+5+4+4+2 or 33 wins and 1+2+3+4+4+6 or 19 losses. So, since 33 does not equal 19 (Remember you said they beat each other up) Who are they beating up? Oh yeah, the SEC East where all the SEC patsies reside. (Who obviously had 19 conference wins and 33 conference losses) A very Weak Conference Division to play against every year.

Now, how can the PAC hold a candle you ask? All but 2 teams in the Conference of 12 were bowl eligible last year. The best of ANY Conference!

The the SEC had the same number of 10 however it is a Conference of 14. So basically just 2 more patsies for the top SEC teams to beat up!

Here's the Conference Bowl eligible percentages:

• PAC .833 Tops in the P5 & D1!
  
• SEC .714

I'd say that holds a candle!

Did the Pac 12 even have a team in the playoff last year? No so that tells me the committee even thinks the Pac 12 was weak last year.

No, they didn't deserve one. The PAC's top dog Stanford had two losses. Now Stanford did play 5 Top 25 teams last year including the Conference Championship. You know, when they pick the top 4. The Cardinal went 3-2 compared to Bama's 3-1 record vs top 25 teams. Who knows if Bama plays another top ranked team if they don't come away with another loss.

We will never know, because Bama played less top 25 teams in then regular season including the Conference Championship and played an easier OOC regular schedule as usual. But what happens if Stanford scheduled another cupcake instead of Northwestern, just like Bama did? Well the Trees are in the playoffs, and damn I'm thinking McCaffrey has something to prove after getting dogged in the Heisman vote. Bama's damned lucky Stanford played 2 OOC top 25 teams and not 1 like they did.

I think you're going a bit full blown homer Vita. I'm ACC guy, but i'm not going to spin stats to make the ACC look better than the SEC and i would NEVER say the SEC is over-rated. I look at the Pac 12's 3rd place teams like Washington St and UCLA and laugh. They would be behind Auburn in last place in the SEC West. Didn't Nebraska beat UCLA last year?

Well, you are just missing the point SJ. Again this whole convo was to look at the PAC as a whole to determine if they had weak defenses or not.

I fully acknowledged that the SEC has some great teams and plays in a great conference. It was never my intention to compare the PAC to any one conference and I wasn't. I have responded to your challenges like the one you made here about holding a candle. But making a statement about the bowl eligible teams shows there is not a big separation between the two, not that the PAC is the greater conference.

To address the last part here SJ, the PAC had 3 teams ranked last year and they weren't Washington St. and UCLA. The other two were Utah and Oregon, you remember the Ducks don't you? And USC was still hurting from the NCAA sanctions, you remember them boys right? If not, I'm sure Saban wont over look them in the opener next year even though the Tide is a double digit favorite at this time. And last, not to make excuses, but my Bruins had a true freshman behind center and lost one of the best if not the best defensive players in CFB along with MANY other defensive players to injury last year (Like 4 NFL talented players). Just a combo we couldn't over come vs the Corn Huskers.

This statement by Danny Webster says it all....

UCLA was the better team, with a better offense, but Nebraska ran right through the Bruins' defense.

 

[Vitamike]

So basically those "cupcake" SEC west teams that were over-rated played BAMA tougher than Sparty - the Big 10 champ who beat Oregon and undefeated Ohio St.

Saban is the best in CFB, Urban Meyers is a close second. But one thing I'll always give the nod to Saban on is when he has time to prepare & has something to prove! And Nick had something to prove after getting bounced in the playoffs the year prior by the B1G.

By the way cupcakes were OOC last year, right?

• Middle Tennessee Blue Raiders (1-4 OOC; Bama won 37-10 @ Home)
  
• La Monroe Warhawks (2-11 Overall; Bama won 34-0 @ Home
  
• Charleston Southern Buccaneers (D2 program; Bama won 56-6 @ Home)

 

[SJ76]

First, we are way off topic, but basically I said the SEC is a great conference in my last post, didn't I?

That said, this convo began with and continues for me to be about whether or not the PAC is a weak defensive conference or not. You keep getting into this battle of the SEC and the PAC and I'm just responding to your misinformation. I wouldn't argue if someone stated the PAC wasn't the strongest defensive conference, but I will argue against being a weak defensive conference. So I showed that ALL D1 conference defenses, (Including the P5) during Goff tenure, struggled just as much as the PAC defenses in head to head contests.

Second, the SEC West is not a conference, so the answer to your question below is 'NO'.
Third, when did I ever contest the end of the year total defensive rankings? I just don't think they are as useful in comparing conferences as head to head conference match-ups are. You know, looking at how these offenses and defenses actually played against one another.

To your example...

Since the SEC West is not a conference, who are these teams you've listed beating? The records have to mathematically add up to zero when calculating conference wins and losses. When we do this, we get...
7+6+5+5+4+4+2 or 33 wins and 1+2+3+4+4+6 or 19 losses. So, since 33 does not equal 19 (Remember you said they beat each other up) Who are they beating up? Oh yeah, the SEC East where all the SEC patsies reside. (Who obviously had 19 conference wins and 33 conference losses) A very Weak Conference Division to play against every year.

Now, how can the PAC hold a candle you ask? All but 2 teams in the Conference of 12 were bowl eligible last year. The best of ANY Conference!

The the SEC had the same number of 10 however it is a Conference of 14. So basically just 2 more patsies for the top SEC teams to beat up!

Here's the Conference Bowl eligible percentages:

• PAC .833 Tops in the P5 & D1!
  
• SEC .714

I'd say that holds a candle!
No, they didn't deserve one. The PAC's top dog Stanford had two losses. Now Stanford did play 5 Top 25 teams last year including the Conference Championship. You know, when they pick the top 4. The Cardinal went 3-2 compared to Bama's 3-1 record vs top 25 teams. Who knows if Bama plays another top ranked team if they don't come away with another loss.

We will never know, because Bama played less top 25 teams in then regular season including the Conference Championship and played an easier OOC regular schedule as usual. But what happens if Stanford scheduled another cupcake instead of Northwestern, just like Bama did? Well the Trees are in the playoffs, and damn I'm thinking McCaffrey has something to prove after getting dogged in the Heisman vote. Bama's damned lucky Stanford played 2 OOC top 25 teams and not 1 like they did.

Well, you are just missing the point SJ. Again this whole convo was to look at the PAC as a whole to determine if they had weak defenses or not.

I fully acknowledged that the SEC has some great teams and plays in a great conference. It was never my intention to compare the PAC to any one conference and I wasn't. I have responded to your challenges like the one you made here about holding a candle. But making a statement about the bowl eligible teams shows there is not a big separation between the two, not that the PAC is the greater conference.

To address the last part here SJ, the PAC had 3 teams ranked last year and they weren't Washington St. and UCLA. The other two were Utah and Oregon, you remember the Ducks don't you? And USC was still hurting from the NCAA sanctions, you remember them boys right? If not, I'm sure Saban wont over look them in the opener next year even though the Tide is a double digit favorite at this time. And last, not to make excuses, but my Bruins had a true freshman behind center and lost one of the best if not the best defensive players in CFB along with MANY other defensive players to injury last year (Like 4 NFL talented players). Just a combo we couldn't over come vs the Corn Huskers.

This statement by Danny Webster says it all....

When i see 9 teams in the top 40 on ncaa total defense -- yardage per game from the SEC and i see 1 from the Pac 12, it tells me what i already know bro. We will just have to disagree.

You said earlier - "this is what i mean by the SEC is over-rated" so i decided to show you the SEC west W/L.
So If you look at the 3rd place teams on the 2 sides of Pac 12 conference, it's UCLA and Wash St. Both of those teams would be behind Auburn in the SEC west -- last place.

 

[SJ76]

Saban is the best in CFB, Urban Meyers is a close second. But one thing I'll always give the nod to Saban on is when he has time to prepare & has something to prove! And Nick had something to prove after getting bounced in the playoffs the year prior by the B1G.

By the way cupcakes were OOC last year, right?

• Middle Tennessee Blue Raiders (1-4 OOC; Bama won 37-10 @ Home)
  
• La Monroe Warhawks (2-11 Overall; Bama won 34-0 @ Home
  
• Charleston Southern Buccaneers (D2 program; Bama won 56-6 @ Home)

Everyone has cupcakes, especially when you are playing every team in your conference that's loaded. BAMA plays in the toughest conference in the NCAA (SEC West) and on top of that, beat Georgia and Tennessee (Sec East) so they can schedule any cupcake they'd like. When you have a brutal conference schedule + opening with Wisconsin, like i said... you can schedule any cupcake they want.

Washington St to me is a cupcake. That defense is horrible and couldn't stop Mississippi Valley Tech St.

 

[SJ76]

But what happens if Stanford scheduled another cupcake instead of Northwestern, just like Bama did?


Northwestern's not a cupcake?

Tennessee 45
Northwestern 6


^ this is exactly my point

 

[SJ76]

Now, how can the PAC hold a candle you ask? All but 2 teams in the Conference of 12 were bowl eligible last year. The best of ANY Conference!

The the SEC had the same number of 10 however it is a Conference of 14. So basically just 2 more patsies for the top SEC teams to beat up!

Here's the Conference Bowl eligible percentages:

• PAC .833 Tops in the P5 & D1!
• SEC .714

I'd say that holds a candle!



So you are saying the Pac 12 and the SEC are close to equal because a team is bowl eligible at 6-6?

That's funny shit.

 

[zeke2829]

 

[zeke2829]

 

[zeke2829]

 

[SJ76]

Total Defense | FBS Football Statistics - NCAA.com

7 teams in top 40 from SEC
1 team in top 40 from Pac 12

5 Pac 12 teams in the BOTTOM 20 of the NCAA.

As far as the topic.. Goff facing decent defenses, the above link shows you what he faced. I can tell you right now,

Wash St
Oregon St
Cal
Arizona St
Arizona
Colorado

Are ALL pillow biting defenses. This is half the Pac 12. All 6 of these teams wouldn't do any better than last place in the SEC west.

WHY?

Cuz they can't stop anyone. And the defenses they would face in the SEC West are WAAY more stout. So they can't stop anyone and their offenses would be getting drilled.

 

[SJ76]

Sure as hell ain't gonna say Goff faced good or even average defenses because some of the teams were 6-6 bowl eligible.

 

[Vitamike]

When i see 9 teams in the top 40 on ncaa total defense -- yardage per game from the SEC and i see 1 from the Pac 12, it tells me what i already know bro. We will just have to disagree.

You said earlier - "this is what i mean by the SEC is over-rated" so i decided to show you the SEC west W/L.
So If you look at the 3rd place teams on the 2 sides of Pac 12 conference, it's UCLA and Wash St. Both of those teams would be behind Auburn in the SEC west -- last place.

I'm not sure how you are evaluating that SJ. Both PAC teams had better records than Auburn's 7-6 record. Washington State 9-4 & UCLA 8-7.

Besides that, here is an unbiased ranking, to this discussion anyways,that refutes what you are trying to say here...

College Football Rankings

• #28 USC
  
• #34 Washington State
• #35 UCLA
• #44 Washington
  
• #46 Cal
• #57 Auburn

That about puts the Tigers in a distant 10th place in the PAC behind Stanford, Utah, Oregon, USC, Washington State, UCLA, Washington & Cal. Same as the SEC, 10th place, behind Alabama, Ole Miss, LSU, Florida, Tennessee, Mississippi State, Georgia, Arkansas, Tex A&M

 

[SJ76]

I'm not sure how you are evaluating that SJ. Both PAC teams had better records than Auburn's 7-6 record. Washington State 9-4 & UCLA 8-7.

Besides that, here is an unbiased ranking, to this discussion anyways,that refutes what you are trying to say here...

College Football Rankings

• #28 USC
  
• #34 Washington State
• #35 UCLA
• #44 Washington
  
• #46 Cal
• #57 Auburn

That about puts the Tigers in a distant 10th place in the PAC behind Stanford, Utah, Oregon, USC, Washington State, UCLA, Washington & Cal. Same as the SEC, 10th place, behind Alabama, Ole Miss, LSU, Florida, Tennessee, Mississippi State, Georgia, Arkansas, Tex A&M

Maybe cuz they play in the Pac 12? Hell put Nebraska in the Pac 12 and they're a powerhouse.

I think we have some West coast bias going on in here. You are going to compare Auburn's record playing in the SEC West to Wash St record playing the pillow biting Pac 12?


Lord man you have gone off your rocker. Wash St can't stop anyone. You do realize that Wash St lost to the Portland St Vikings right? Yes the 9-4 Wash St Cougars. Is the Big Sky even D1?

 

[Vitamike]

Everyone has cupcakes, especially when you are playing every team in your conference that's loaded. BAMA plays in the toughest conference in the NCAA (SEC West) and on top of that, beat Georgia and Tennessee (Sec East) so they can schedule any cupcake they'd like. When you have a brutal conference schedule + opening with Wisconsin, like i said... you can schedule any cupcake they want.

Washington St to me is a cupcake. That defense is horrible and couldn't stop Mississippi Valley Tech St.

Sure, they can schedule who they want. They don't need the exposure that the West coast teams do to get noticed but once again you missed the point.

I brought up cupcakes because 3 cupcakes like that elevates your total defensive numbers and all SEC teams do it, that's why they play 4 OOC games and only 8 conference games. Who knows where them total defenses would be if they played 9 conference games and no D2 games.

Honestly, I just don't believe D1 schools should be allowed to schedule D2 schools.

Both USC, UCLA & Notre Dame refuse to do it yet it a staple with most P5 schools.

 

[Smed55]

Gee, I didn't mean to stir things up? I live in the Midwest and I would say along with the majority of people that the best conference in football is the SEC, period.
I'm also saying that the PAC 12 is a throwing conference as was the Big 12 when Sammie boy came out, all offensive numbers are going to be a little skewed?

In the big picture what I'm saying is the average college team has a few decent defensive players, Goff, Sammy, or other QBs are going to put up numbers against teams that have a couple of good defensive players. In the NFL they are playing against a team of good players, so Goffs great red zone numbers aren't necessarily going to translate to the NFl.
It's alot easier to throw 40-50 TD passes in college than it it's in the NFL, otherwise Tommy Chang and Sammy would be posing for their HOF bust already?

 

[Vitamike]

Maybe cuz they play in the Pac 12? Hell put Nebraska in the Pac 12 and they're a powerhouse.

I think we have some West coast bias going on in here. You are going to compare Auburn's record playing in the SEC West to Wash St record playing the pillow biting Pac 12?


Lord man you have gone off your rocker. Wash St can't stop anyone. You do realize that Wash St lost to the Portland St Vikings right? Yes the 9-4 Wash St Cougars. Is the Big Sky even D1?

You're just talking trash now.

I just showed you some rankings that put the Tigers way down to 10th in both conferences and your only come back is to trash the Conference.

Who cares about Washington State, they have been a bottom feeder for a long time now and finished up having a decent season under Leach's high powered offense schemes.

Good God man, stick to the facts & quite plucking anomalies to make your point.

Care to comment on the CBS rankings?

Or is that to straight forward for you.

 

[SJ76]

Ok so Pac 12 OOC games we have:

Portland St beats Wash St
Nebraska beats UCLA
Texas A&M hammers AZ St 38-17 at Jerry world
Stanford loses to Northwestern 16-6 (NW lost to Tennessee 45-6)
Washington loses to Boise St
Oregon loses to TCU and Sparty
USC loses to Wisconsin
Colorado loses to Hawaii
Oregon St can't even beat their own meat

UTAH beats Michigan!!!



So besides Utah over Michigan.. Who THE FUCK has the Pac 12 beat outside their own conference that's worth a shit?


And don't say Stanford over Iowa, because Iowa's only good win was Northwestern! They were truly over-rated.

Wash St doesn't even beat Kentucky if they are in the same conference.


Hell Auburn beat Memphis and Louisville in their OOC. The LAST place team in the SEC West

 

[SJ76]

You're just talking trash now.

I just showed you some rankings that put the Tigers way down to 10th in both conferences and your only come back is to trash the Conference.

Who cares about Washington State, they have been a bottom feeder for a long time now and finished up having a decent season under Leach's high powered offense schemes.

Good God man, stick to the facts & quite plucking anomalies to make your point.

Care to comment on the CBS rankings?

Or is that to straight forward for you.

U haven't shown anything besides a for the Pac 12 Vita.

FCS Portland St Vikings > Washington St Cougars at 9-4 in the Pac 12! It's pretty dam simple

 

[Vitamike]

Gee, I didn't mean to stir things up? I live in the Midwest and I would say along with the majority of people that the best conference in football is the SEC, period.
I'm also saying that the PAC 12 is a throwing conference as was the Big 12 when Sammie boy came out, all offensive numbers are going to be a little skewed?

In the big picture what I'm saying is the average college team has a few decent defensive players, Goff, Sammy, or other QBs are going to put up numbers against teams that have a couple of good defensive players. In the NFL they are playing against a team of good players, so Goffs great red zone numbers aren't necessarily going to translate to the NFl.
It's alot easier to throw 40-50 TD passes in college than it it's in the NFL, otherwise Tommy Chang and Sammy would be posing for their HOF bust already?

I can't argue a single point you've made here.

SJ and I are just having some fun here.

2 CFB Honks!