Week 12 Michael Jordan NonParticipation Trophy

[cincygrad]

Yes, but you are forgetting - Taylor could just lose out the rest of this season and could be canned, not costing Burrow any additional "losses".

A. The management will look to shift blame for the Burrow injury and the OL to Taylor and his staff - as they were the ones "in control" of the roster

B. He will have one of the worst all-time starts to a coaching career with just 4 wins based off the number of games coached. That's worse than any other Bengals coach in history - and is one of the worst all-time in NFL history. He's just the 9th coach EVER to win only 4 games through his first 27 games. At 5 more games, and 5 more losses, that would put him at 4-27-1 over his first 32 games.

To put that record in perspective - Zach Taylor would be the WORST head coach in the modern NFL at that point based on number of games he was allowed to coach. At that point he would have just 4 wins in 32 games. The next closest coach with that few wins and at least "close" as many games coached would be Richard Williamson from 1990-91 who was 4-15 (only 19 games - as every other coach is usually fired loooong before they are allowed to coach 20+ games with so few wins).

To find a coach who was allowed to coach for (near) as many games and as few wins you would have to go back to 1966 - 1968 for Norb Hecker who went 4-26-1. To find someone who did WORSE you'd have to go back to 1943 - 1951 and Phil Handler who went 4-34. At that point, Taylor would be the 2nd losing-est coach in NFL history based on the amount of games coached compared to number of wins.

And I think his record is 100% related to his handling of Joe Burrow. I think Taylor has been desperate to show himself as a young offensive guru, but he's been the furthest thing from it. In his first season, he benched an adequate (but not spectacular) veteran qb to roll the dice with a rookie. Even though he knew the veteran wasn't ever coming back, he put him back in to collect two meaningless wins..... He did this even though it limited the amount of PT given to a guy that would become the primary back-up this season. And he also did it because his offense looked terribly inept with an unqualified rookie at the head of the offense.

This year he has Burrow and while I agree that you don't leave the Ferrari in the garage, I also don't think you drive it off-road. Zac controls the offense. If you have an offense that is leading your qb to be hit a record rate, you need to change the offense..... That could mean schematically or from a play-calling perspective. Something. You don't let your qb get peppered until he breaks. But that's what he did. It was making him look smart while Joe was healthy. Now he looks like an idiot.

 

[DanBengalfan]

i thought for sure dave shula never won a game. lol.

 

[Cincyfan78]

i thought for sure dave shula never won a game. lol.

Sure felt like it.

I think one thing for ZT is that he had Burrow that brought some excitement. Shula had Klingler - who ironically - was set behind one of the worst OLs in Bengal history after retirement and attrition.

So - history repeats for Mike Brown. Draft a QB high, refuse to rebuild the line, watch the QB get hurt.

I still say to this day that Klingler was such a poor fit for Cincinnati. A run-shoot (now call spread) offensive QB who never took a snap under center drafted by a team who would only run the WC offense. You could not get a more opposite matching. It's a shame he didn't get drafted in Houston to back up Moon - where they ran a version of the run-shoot. I think he could have had a chance.

 

[cincygrad]

Sure felt like it.

I think one thing for ZT is that he had Burrow that brought some excitement. Shula had Klingler - who ironically - was set behind one of the worst OLs in Bengal history after retirement and attrition.

So - history repeats for Mike Brown. Draft a QB high, refuse to rebuild the line, watch the QB get hurt.

I still say to this day that Klingler was such a poor fit for Cincinnati. A run-shoot (now call spread) offensive QB who never took a snap under center drafted by a team who would only run the WC offense. You could not get a more opposite matching. It's a shame he didn't get drafted in Houston to back up Moon - where they ran a version of the run-shoot. I think he could have had a chance.

Dave Shula was almost 3-0 at the beginning of his career as coach of the Bengals. If Brett Favre doesn't come in for an injured Don Majkowski, who knows what happens that afternoon? But, he was still coaching a lot of the late 80s Bengals. The roster drain was in full effect during his tenure..... I think this is when plan b free agency and other personnel changes were put in place. Those were some bad teams.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Dave Shula was almost 3-0 at the beginning of his career as coach of the Bengals. If Brett Favre doesn't come in for an injured Don Majkowski, who knows what happens that afternoon? But, he was still coaching a lot of the late 80s Bengals. The roster drain was in full effect during his tenure..... I think this is when plan b free agency and other personnel changes were put in place. Those were some bad teams.

Yeah, that is when F/A first really started hitting the NFL, and Brown refused to accept the new path. When you draft poorly and then refuse to sign any F/A of note - you get the lost decade.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

You think Sewell has knee problems because of the knee braces? My understanding is that there are several coaches in college that require knee braces on their offensive lineman. I've never heard he has any issues at all - Could be a coaches decision or maybe he's protecting the investment.... I mean, the braces aren't stopping him from dominating the college competition, so maybe he figure he'll wear them in the event he gets tangled up.

I didn't know that. So if that is the case, sorry for the misinformation I was inadvertently providing.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I didn't know that. So if that is the case, sorry for the misinformation I was inadvertently providing.

Yeah, lots of teams now pretty much require it.

I know if I were a coach, I would 100% require it for OL. When you are talking about that kind of weight and trying to move as they move - and then end up at the bottom of piles - it makes no sense not to wear them.

I'd probably have my DT's wear them, too. Not DE's since they are usually lighter, but when you start getting into that 300lb range - that's a ton of pressure on the knees - and it doesn't take much to get them hit the wrong way when another 300lb guy lands on the side, or gets twisted in a pile.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Yeah, lots of teams now pretty much require it.

I know if I were a coach, I would 100% require it for OL. When you are talking about that kind of weight and trying to move as they move - and then end up at the bottom of piles - it makes no sense not to wear them.

I'd probably have my DT's wear them, too. Not DE's since they are usually lighter, but when you start getting into that 300lb range - that's a ton of pressure on the knees - and it doesn't take much to get them hit the wrong way when another 300lb guy lands on the side, or gets twisted in a pile.

Perhaps you should have a light weight version available for QB's? *wonders*

 

[cincygrad]

I was curious and just did a quick search.... Yes, they are basically mandated at the college level. Apparently a lot of players hate them, but wear them to be compliant. Regardless, not a reason to exclude Sewell - Now we can get back to arguing whether he's played enough elite competition!

 

[Cincyfan78]

I was curious and just did a quick search.... Yes, they are basically mandated at the college level. Apparently a lot of players hate them, but wear them to be compliant. Regardless, not a reason to exclude Sewell - Now we can get back to arguing whether he's played enough elite competition!

It may not really matter. I haven't looked at the OL list, but a mock draft I saw only has 1 OT prospect going in the 1st round. Sewell. The other OL are all interior - so, it may not really matter. He's the guy if they are taking a OT.

 

[cincygrad]

It may not really matter. I haven't looked at the OL list, but a mock draft I saw only has 1 OT prospect going in the 1st round. Sewell. The other OL are all interior - so, it may not really matter. He's the guy if they are taking a OT.

Well.... Dallas might lose out - We could beat them. And then they would most certainly take him.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Well.... Dallas might lose out - We could beat them. And then they would most certainly take him.

No way is this team beating Dallas - then again - it would fit the Bengal narrative to win a game, or two, they shouldn't screwing themselves over. Almost happened last year with the Dolphin game.

There are a few more intriguing options that, should the Bengals end up at 4 or 5 and miss out on Sewell, they could trade down for more picks and pick a guy later on. There's a kid from 'Bama, Texas, and Standford all pretty good. I think the kid from Standford was the #1 tackle going into last year but got hurt - and decided to return this year.

So, I guess there are other options - but Sewell seems to be the clear cut #1 by all accounts. I still say - they should sign a F/A because they need to pay for a known quantity. Protecting Burrow has just become even more important with him returning from a major knee injury. I would still prefer that job to fall to a proven player rather than a rookie.

 

[cincygrad]

No way is this team beating Dallas - then again - it would fit the Bengal narrative to win a game, or two, they shouldn't screwing themselves over. Almost happened last year with the Dolphin game.

There are a few more intriguing options that, should the Bengals end up at 4 or 5 and miss out on Sewell, they could trade down for more picks and pick a guy later on. There's a kid from 'Bama, Texas, and Standford all pretty good. I think the kid from Standford was the #1 tackle going into last year but got hurt - and decided to return this year.

So, I guess there are other options - but Sewell seems to be the clear cut #1 by all accounts. I still say - they should sign a F/A because they need to pay for a known quantity. Protecting Burrow has just become even more important with him returning from a major knee injury. I would still prefer that job to fall to a proven player rather than a rookie.

From a talent perspective, it shouldn't happen. Even with their injuries, Dallas has better players. But, they have a wildly overrated coach and a star running back that has been completely disinterested all season (and now apparently fumbles all the time). They have an offensive line that rivals ares for combinations of players due to injury and ineffectiveness..... And they have Andy Dalton, which obviously means that you'll get a reasonable, competent and even sometimes great performance - Most of the time. The rest of the time? Hot garbage. If Dalton has a hot garbage day when they play us, you might see our D pad some stats and pull off the big win.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I also think we should sign a quality vet in FA to protect Burrow's backside. Plus, I am really interested in Ja'Marr Chase. A guy considered the #3 overall prospect even with taking a year off. He is an AJ green type player, little shorter, little faster, but glue for hands and can take the top off a defense opening up the middle of the field for Burrow, Boyd, Higgins and Tate.

LT Trent Williams or Alejandro Villanueva
LG Spain
C Hopkins
RG Su'a-Filo
RT Jonah Williams / Fred Johnson / Adeniji / 2nd or 3rd round draft pick

Get Jamis Winston to man the team at starter until Burrow is healthy and ready. Winston throws way too many interceptions, but when you throw for 5000 yards, and 30 TD's, you can still sling it even though decision making can be questionable at times. In a wide open spread offense like Taylor's, he may be able to succeed for half a season here, rebuild his name, be backup second half of season, and then move on in FA the following year.

 

[cincygrad]

I also think we should sign a quality vet in FA to protect Burrow's backside. Plus, I am really interested in Ja'Marr Chase. A guy considered the #3 overall prospect even with taking a year off. He is an AJ green type player, little shorter, little faster, but glue for hands and can take the top off a defense opening up the middle of the field for Burrow, Boyd, Higgins and Tate.

LT Trent Williams or Alejandro Villanueva
LG Spain
C Hopkins
RG Su'a-Filo
RT Jonah Williams / Fred Johnson / Adeniji / 2nd or 3rd round draft pick

Get Jamis Winston to man the team at starter until Burrow is healthy and ready. Winston throws way too many interceptions, but when you throw for 5000 yards, and 30 TD's, you can still sling it even though decision making can be questionable at times. In a wide open spread offense like Taylor's, he may be able to succeed for half a season here, rebuild his name, be backup second half of season, and then move on in FA the following year.

You are basically asking the Bengals to bring back the same line with the possible addition of 1 big priced LT. Both of them are 32 BTW.... And then hoping we can count on Su'a-Filo - A guy that has busted his knee and broke his leg twice. And counting on Spain who has looked good here, but was beaten out by younger competition in Buffalo. I don't think this is fixing the line at all. I think they need two, high quality starters that they acquire in free agency. Any part of the line. And if you have a chance at the best left tackle in the draft, I think you take him.

 

[Cincyfan78]

You are basically asking the Bengals to bring back the same line with the possible addition of 1 big priced LT. Both of them are 32 BTW.... And then hoping we can count on Su'a-Filo - A guy that has busted his knee and broke his leg twice. And counting on Spain who has looked good here, but was beaten out by younger competition in Buffalo. I don't think this is fixing the line at all. I think they need two, high quality starters that they acquire in free agency. Any part of the line. And if you have a chance at the best left tackle in the draft, I think you take him.

Spain is interesting - did well enough to get a nice contract extension and didn't even make it out of the 1st year of that extension. Odd to say the least.

I think you find/sign a FA LT - you drop down in the draft and still draft a OT since most can play both G/T. You then have a LT, move Jonah to RT, and have a 1st round pick that you can use at OT/G and create some depth and competition.

I get wanting another WR - and I think adding a good outside WR to replace AJ is needed - especially for this open offense to really take the next step with Burrow - but it won't matter who that WR is - prime Randy Moss or Prime Jerry Rice - if Burrow isn't upright to throw the ball.

The focus has to be at a minimum a top tier F/A LT or even top tier FA G (or both) and then another high round pick OL. The team needs talent and depth infused across this OL. Drafting a Sewell or whoever and still signing a top tier T in F/A shouldn't be out of the question - because moving Jonah to RT isn't a given that he'll improve/succeed. He still has a lot to show.

 

[cincygrad]

Spain is interesting - did well enough to get a nice contract extension and didn't even make it out of the 1st year of that extension. Odd to say the least.

I think you find/sign a FA LT - you drop down in the draft and still draft a OT since most can play both G/T. You then have a LT, move Jonah to RT, and have a 1st round pick that you can use at OT/G and create some depth and competition.

I get wanting another WR - and I think adding a good outside WR to replace AJ is needed - especially for this open offense to really take the next step with Burrow - but it won't matter who that WR is - prime Randy Moss or Prime Jerry Rice - if Burrow isn't upright to throw the ball.

The focus has to be at a minimum a top tier F/A LT or even top tier FA G (or both) and then another high round pick OL. The team needs talent and depth infused across this OL. Drafting a Sewell or whoever and still signing a top tier T in F/A shouldn't be out of the question - because moving Jonah to RT isn't a given that he'll improve/succeed. He still has a lot to show.

I think free agency is often overrated. However, I think this offseason is the year the Bengals need to overpay a little. I think it's important to send a signal to the rest of the franchise that you are doing everything in your power to protect the investment. It might not work out, but at least you won't second guess yourself when you are lining up with Michael Jordan playing guard next opening day. I favor them paying good money for two top end line FAs..... Regardless of position.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

You are basically asking the Bengals to bring back the same line with the possible addition of 1 big priced LT. Both of them are 32 BTW.... And then hoping we can count on Su'a-Filo - A guy that has busted his knee and broke his leg twice. And counting on Spain who has looked good here, but was beaten out by younger competition in Buffalo. I don't think this is fixing the line at all. I think they need two, high quality starters that they acquire in free agency. Any part of the line. And if you have a chance at the best left tackle in the draft, I think you take him.

Here's the problem. The Bengals took Jonah Williams to be the LT of the future two years ago. Didn't take a snap last year, just starting to get his sea legs under him this year as he fights his way back from injury and overcomes basically a rookie season against top pass rushers.

I would like to see him moved to the right side, but I don't think that is realistic either with management. Williams has had some plays were you wonder about him, but he has also been getting progressively better too.

Then you look at the rest of the oline.

LG if it is not Spain getting a nod there, which is fine, you can find a damn good guard prospect at the top of the second round.

C, Hopkins....he is our most consistent player on the oline, he is fine where he is.

RG...Su'a-Filo is coming back this week, so we will see how he does the last several weeks of the season, but I was really high on him coming over from Dallas. He has not been in the lineup since the Chargers on opening day.

RT...Hart has got to go. This is probably where you spend your FA money on the line. Sewell is a LT, and if you are not moving him to RT, and you are not sure you want to move Williams if you see him improving, then Sewell is the wrong draft pick, saying we screwed up with Williams, which I think is way too early for that.

However, do you know of any quality RT's hitting FA this next year?

I think our best bet is taking the sure thing in Chase, strengthening the position and Burrow's options while still trying to fill those holes on the online. I also think they were improving each week also. They were not getting much pressure on Burrow with a really good Washington defensive line until the accident. Pittsburgh owned us, as usual, but I think overall the last 5 weeks, the offensive line had looked much better.

 

[cincygrad]

I don't think you can take the mindset of looking for a specific position of need. I think you need to upgrade - Best player available. The idea that you can't target a new left tackle in the draft because you took a left tackle two drafts ago is ludicrous. It's not acknowledging mistakes or potential mistakes. This is the type of thinking that has got the Bengals in trouble. They build through the draft but often wait too long for development that isn't going to happen. If Sewel is the best player available at pick 3 (which many early projections say he is), then you have to take him. And you have to pick up a few FA offensive lineman. If we have too many good offensive linemen next season, so be it..... We'll have the money. And yes, maybe spending big in FA and in the draft on an offensive line might lead to less money for other positions of need. I'm okay with it - If our line is truly great, our offense will be great and we'll score a shitload of points.... And Burrow will be healthy.