Top 32 tournament C Rodriguez vs Carter

[calsnowskier]

That is silly... Of course i like HRs... Its the arbitrary weight of each hit the bothers me... It clearly overvalues power...

but it isnt arbitrary at all. It weighs each based on the total number of bases achieved. That is about as far from arbitrary as you can possibly get.

You would like to apply some translation value to each hit to weigh it towards your preference. That seems much more arbitrary to me. Once you introduce translation values, the stat becomes much more subjective (the primary complaint I have with OPS+).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

but it isnt arbitrary at all. It weighs each based on the total number of bases achieved. That is about as far from arbitrary as you can possibly get.

You would like to apply some translation value to each hit to weigh it towards your preference. That seems much more arbitrary to me. Once you introduce translation values, the stat becomes much more subjective (the primary complaint I have with OPS+).

fine maybe not arbitrary, but even the advanced stats realized they overvalued power thats why stats like wOBA came...

I have said this in other threads, but i like to make my own stats, using weights that i like...

 

[Cedrique]

The OPS conversation is interesting. I never thought of it that way. The "value" of different hits is approximate, but I would say if a homerun is valued at 5/4 of a triple in OPS that the triple is overvalued--a lot of times those guys on third never make it home.

 

[Cedrique]

Even if those numbers aren't what you were talking about the point is that a homerun is a play that always accomplishes the goal, whereas with other hits a lot of possible runs are left on the table

 

[calsnowskier]

Even if those numbers aren't what you were talking about the point is that a homerun is a play that always accomplishes the goal, whereas with other hits a lot of possible runs are left on the table

Just to be contrarian...

Would you rather a player go 1-4 with a HR (OPS 1.250) or 3-5 with 3 singles (OPS 1.200)? The first scenario accounted for a minimum of 1 run, a potential of 4. The second scenario accounted for a minimum of 0 runs and a potential max of about 9 runs (assuming each single produced 2 RBI and he scored himself each time) AND he "kept the line moving".

To prefer one over the other introduces a rather large dose of subjectivity. To say each scenario was an effective game is pure objectivity. Like all stats, looking at OPS too closely to find an exact valuation just leads to inaccurate assumptions about the final numbers. IMHO, assigning a multiplier to this event or the other is fine tuning to a level outside the margin of error.

 

[Cedrique]

Just to be contrarian...

Would you rather a player go 1-4 with a HR (OPS 1.250) or 3-5 with 3 singles (OPS 1.200)? The first scenario accounted for a minimum of 1 run, a potential of 4. The second scenario accounted for a minimum of 0 runs and a potential max of about 9 runs (assuming each single produced 2 RBI and he scored himself each time) AND he "kept the line moving".

To prefer one over the other introduces a rather large dose of subjectivity. To say each scenario was an effective game is pure objectivity. Like all stats, looking at OPS too closely to find an exact valuation just leads to inaccurate assumptions about the final numbers. IMHO, assigning a multiplier to this event or the other is fine tuning to a level outside the margin of error.

Yes, that's an interesting point. I had a couple things to add to interject but it's hard to express without the aid of some coffee.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just to be contrarian...

Would you rather a player go 1-4 with a HR (OPS 1.250) or 3-5 with 3 singles (OPS 1.200)? The first scenario accounted for a minimum of 1 run, a potential of 4. The second scenario accounted for a minimum of 0 runs and a potential max of about 9 runs (assuming each single produced 2 RBI and he scored himself each time) AND he "kept the line moving".

To prefer one over the other introduces a rather large dose of subjectivity. To say each scenario was an effective game is pure objectivity. Like all stats, looking at OPS too closely to find an exact valuation just leads to inaccurate assumptions about the final numbers. IMHO, assigning a multiplier to this event or the other is fine tuning to a level outside the margin of error.

Clearly, the best case scenario for both you would rather take the 3 singles, and the worst case scenario is to take the HR player... But now you are talking about team stats of RBIs and RUNs... Don't we TRY to make our analyses with only individual statistics...

Honestly, I don't even like CLUTCH stats, there are so many of them and the more specific the smaller the sample size is... Then different people have different thoughts of what CLUTCH means...

 

[calsnowskier]

Clearly, the best case scenario for both you would rather take the 3 singles, and the worst case scenario is to take the HR player... But now you are talking about team stats of RBIs and RUNs... Don't we TRY to make our analyses with only individual statistics...

Honestly, I don't even like CLUTCH stats, there are so many of them and the more specific the smaller the sample size is... Then different people have different thoughts of what CLUTCH means...

Purely subjective. It is NOT clearly better than the other.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Purely subjective. It is NOT clearly better than the other.

Read what I wrote...

 

[calsnowskier]

Read what I wrote...

Gotcha. I misread your emphasis.

My bad.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Gotcha. I misread your emphasis.

My bad.

No problem, just tried to prevent another argument where I would go way past my original point and argue something that doesn't need to be argued...

 

[TDs3nOut]

Pudge = GOAT