Top 32 tournament C Fisk vs Berra

[UK Cowboy]

Did the people who voted Berra even look at the numbers?

I get it. This FEELS like an obvious vote. I came into this one tempted to not even look it up. But I DID look it up. And I learned something.

DONT RELY ON YOUR ASSUMPTIONS, PEOPLE!! Look this up. It isn't really all that close!

What numbers? 162 game averages are Berra across the board. It's comical to me that people discount 3 MVP's. Some day, 30 years from now, I guess some people will look at Randy Johnson and say, "who cares about Cy Young's, Jamie Moyer has longevity"....absurd

 

[UK Cowboy]

Did the people who voted Berra even look at the numbers?

I get it. This FEELS like an obvious vote. I came into this one tempted to not even look it up. But I DID look it up. And I learned something.

DONT RELY ON YOUR ASSUMPTIONS, PEOPLE!! Look this up. It isn't really all that close!

Berra had 9 seasons of at least 90 RBI in 19 seasons. In 24 seasons, Fisk had.....2. You're right....it isn't even close

 

[DragonfromTO]

Power-Fisk wins(VERY CLOSE)
XBH%
Yogi-Career=8.7, Best=10.2, seasons better than average=7, MLB average=6.5
Fisk- career=8.6, best=11.5, seasons better than average=14, MLB average=6.5

SO- Yogi wins(not close)
SO%
Yogi- Career- 5.0, best= 1.8,seasons better than average=9, MLB average= 12.2
Fisk- Career=14.1, Best=9.4, seasons better than average=12, MLB average=14.0

BB- Fisk wins( close)
BB%
Yogi- Career=8.4, Best=11, seasons better than average=10, MLB average=9.1
Fisk- Career=8.6, Best=12.4, seasons better than average=12, MLB average= 8.6

BA- Yogi wins(close)
Yogi- Career=.285, Best=.322, seasons better than average=7, seasons over 300=3
Fisk= Career=.265, Best=331, Seasons better than average=12, seasons over .300=3

Defense-Fisk Wins(close)
dWAR
Yogi- Career=8.7, Best=1.1, 14 seasons above average, 2 seasons 1 or higher
Fisk- Career=16.3, Best=2.3, 20 seasons above average, 9 seasons 1 or above

playoffs- Yogi wins(NOT CLOSE) BUT Yogi played 60 more playoff games

career longevity- Fisk wins(over a thousand more PA)

Defensive longevity-Fisk wins(nearly 600 more games)


Unfortunately the analysis says Fisk wins... I walked into this one thinking that Yogi was going to win easily... But i have to respect the analysis and go with Fisk... He was just better....

The league batting average was 3 points lower during Berra's career than during Fisk's yet Yogi still hit 16 points higher (Fisk is .269 not .265). I don't know that I agree that this one is "close".

 

[calsnowskier]

What numbers? 162 game averages are Berra across the board. It's comical to me that people discount 3 MVP's. Some day, 30 years from now, I guess some people will look at Randy Johnson and say, "who cares about Cy Young's, Jamie Moyer has longevity"....absurd

I agree with you that MVPs are important. While not perfect, they tell how the "experts" at the time viewed the player.

But Berra was on THE team, in THE city. Fisk was on the BoSox before they were dominant and the ChiSox when they were, well, the ChiSox.

And who claimed Fisk was better just because he played longer? He is better because he had better seasons. He is better because he was better defensively. He is better because he was effective for longer. He had 4 seasons better than Berra's best.

 

[calsnowskier]

Berra had 9 seasons of at least 90 RBI in 19 seasons. In 24 seasons, Fisk had.....2. You're right....it isn't even close

RsBI? Really?

You are basing this on RsBI?

 

[UK Cowboy]

RsBI? Really?

You are basing this on RsBI?

Per 162 game averages in HR's, RBI and Batting average, 3X voted the most valuable player in the game, little stuff like that. And yeah, I would consider a guy that drove in at least 90 runs in nearly 50% of his seasons far better than someone who couldn't even do it in 10% of his....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The league batting average was 3 points lower during Berra's career than during Fisk's yet Yogi still hit 16 points higher (Fisk is .269 not .265). I don't know that I agree that this one is "close".

Depends on your definition of close... I called Yogi the winner... But it is certainly not significant enough to be the main decider...

 

[calsnowskier]

Per 162 game averages in HR's, RBI and Batting average, 3X voted the most valuable player in the game, little stuff like that. And yeah, I would consider a guy that drove in at least 90 runs in nearly 50% of his seasons far better than someone who couldn't even do it in 10% of his....

And 162 averages...

So the fact that one player actually showed up more often does not weigh into your analysis? I like to judge by what actually happened. Not what MIGHT have happened if this or the other thing happened. Fisk actually played. You dont have to guess what he would have done with more ABs or more innings.

When looking at defense (and catcher is arguably the most import defensive position), Fisk wins big.

When looking at impactful offensive seasons, Fisk had 4 seasons better than Berra's best. And when looking at total seasons where they were a significant force (OPS+ of 120 or better), they were basically equal (Berra had one more season).

Berra is considered one of the best catchers because he was on arguably the greatest dynasty in the history of the game. That is fair. But why reward a guy for something his teammates did? Fisk played on lessor teams. Is that his fault?

 

[UK Cowboy]

And 162 averages...

So the fact that one player actually showed up more often does not weigh into your analysis? I like to judge by what actually happened. Not what MIGHT have happened if this or the other thing happened. Fisk actually played. You dont have to guess what he would have done with more ABs or more innings.

When looking at defense (and catcher is arguably the most import defensive position), Fisk wins big.

When looking at impactful offensive seasons, Fisk had 4 seasons better than Berra's best. And when looking at total seasons where they were a significant force (OPS+ of 120 or better), they were basically equal (Berra had one more season).

Berra is considered one of the best catchers because he was on arguably the greatest dynasty in the history of the game. That is fair. But why reward a guy for something his teammates did? Fisk played on lessor teams. Is that his fault?

What can I say, I disagree with you. I'd rather have someone who was a great player for 19 years than a very good player for 24

 

[MilkSpiller22]

What can I say, I disagree with you. I'd rather have someone who was a great player for 19 years than a very good player for 24

But that's the thing, you take both players best seasons and Fisk had the better peak... Especially if you bring in defense where Fisk Was much better...

 

[UK Cowboy]

But that's the thing, you take both players best seasons and Fisk had the better peak... Especially if you bring in defense where Fisk Was much better...

I don't agree with that either Milk. Yogurt had better offensive career numbers despite playing 5 less seasons. Pull up the top 5 offensive years for both men and average them out. Still Yogi. I am old enough to remember Fisk, though obviously not Berra. I never watched Fisk and thought, wow, maybe the best ever, like Bench or even Pudge Rodriguez. Up until Bench, Yogi was considered the best ever

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't agree with that either Milk. Yogurt had better offensive career numbers despite playing 5 less seasons. Pull up the top 5 offensive years for both men and average them out. Still Yogi. I am old enough to remember Fisk, though obviously not Berra. I never watched Fisk and thought, wow, maybe the best ever, like Bench or even Pudge Rodriguez. Up until Bench, Yogi was considered the best ever

But in the oWAR7, Fisk is better (35.3 vs 35.0). You have to get to Fisks #4 best season before you can find a season to compare to Berra's best.

I think the Yankee glare and a great personality has really added to Yogi's legend.

I certainly fell for it.

And this not to say Berra was a scrub. He is absolutely one of the all-time best. This just proves how UNDERRATED Fisk is/was.

 

[UK Cowboy]

But in the oWAR7, Fisk is better (35.3 vs 35.0). You have to get to Fisks #4 best season before you can find a season to compare to Berra's best.

I think the Yankee glare and a great personality has really added to Yogi's legend.

I certainly fell for it.

And this not to say Berra was a scrub. He is absolutely one of the all-time best. This just proves how UNDERRATED Fisk is/was.

I get that, and feel Fisk was underrated, but I still feel Fiskwas a very good, but not great player . Yogi was a great player for his era

 

[calsnowskier]

I cant say I understand where your conclusion comes from, but at least you stood up and defended it.

Kudos.

 

[UK Cowboy]

I cant say I understand where your conclusion comes from, but at least you stood up and defended it.

Kudos.

Likewise. I'd be happy to have either guy on my team

 

[calsnowskier]

Again...

Thanks to obx for this. I never would have compared Fisk to Berra heads-up if not for this exercise. I had always been in the camp of Fisk being a very over-rated player and nothing all that super-special. I have learned something from this analysis.

Thank you!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

lets just take the seasons where both players played at least 125 games

Yogi has 10 seasons Fisk has 13...

In those seasons

BA-
Yogi Has the best season AND 6 of the top 10

SLG-

Fisk has the best season, but has only 4 of the top 10

OBP-
Fisk has the best season and 5 of the top 10

OPS+
Fisk has the best season but only 4 of the top 10

dWAR

Fisk has the Best season AND has 8 of the top 10

Ultimately the offense seems a wash, maybe a small edge to yogi... But it is defense that really separates the two!!!

 

[da55bums]

How does a guy have his CAREER offensive year at 37 yrs old?

Fisk had a normal power and career til age 34, then all of a sudden his power takes off? coinciding with the years steroids take off?

without looking at numbers, I went with Yogi - who revolutionized the catching position, with offense and defense

looking at the numbers - Fisk gets it but I never thought of Fisk as a possible PED user, but the out of the ordinary numbers suggest that I wouldn't be shocked if Fisk tried many were trying to be better baseball players.

 

[da55bums]

Yogi's numbers started declining at 34, like most normal players.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How does a guy have his CAREER offensive year at 37 yrs old?

Fisk had a normal power and career til age 34, then all of a sudden his power takes off? coinciding with the years steroids take off?

without looking at numbers, I went with Yogi - who revolutionized the catching position, with offense and defense

looking at the numbers - Fisk gets it but I never thought of Fisk as a possible PED user, but the out of the ordinary numbers suggest that I wouldn't be shocked if Fisk tried many were trying to be better baseball players.

He did hit .237 that year... so it makes sense that he probably just hit for the fences...