POLL Top 10 poll: #28 player ever

calsnowskier · 2025-03-22T12:20:52-0500

Based on ERA buckets, Kershaw is the GOSOTB (Greatest Of Still On The Board). But he doesn’t compete at all in IP, though that has a LOT to do with his era.

Spahn was effectively wild. He never led the league in K/BB despite leading in Ks 4 times. But his 5200+ IPs show that his wildness didn’t hurt him.

Alexander had 1 OMG outlier season, but after that was really just very very good, and not really OMG all-time great (though, at 28, is that a requirement anymore?).

IMHO, Koufax’s resume is just way too short for this spot. He is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game. I understand that is a minority opinion, but isn’t that kinda the definition of overrated?

eaglesnut · 2025-03-22T12:44:04-0500

Cedrique said:
Between 1914-1917 Alexander won 121 games, leading the league in wins all 4 seasons and ERA 3 of those season, also Ks all 4, ERA+ 2 of those seasons. Those seasons also included 42 shutouts.

That would be considered his prime, which was stopped in 1918 by WWI but in 1919-20 he picked up where he left off with another 2 great seasons.

Domination

calsnowskier · 2025-03-22T13:09:14-0500

This nomination round appears to be pretty cut ‘n dry. I don’t remember that ever happening…

jarntt · 2025-03-22T14:46:58-0500

Other Bob Gibson

MilkSpiller22 · 2025-03-22T15:06:25-0500

calsnowskier said:
Based on ERA buckets, Kershaw is the GOSOTB (Greatest Of Still On The Board). But he doesn’t compete at all in IP, though that has a LOT to do with his era.

Spahn was effectively wild. He never led the league in K/BB despite leading in Ks 4 times. But his 5200+ IPs show that his wildness didn’t hurt him.

Alexander had 1 OMG outlier season, but after that was really just very very good, and not really OMG all-time great (though, at 28, is that a requirement anymore?).

IMHO, Koufax’s resume is just way too short for this spot. He is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game. I understand that is a minority opinion, but isn’t that kinda the definition of overrated?

Although I agree about Koufax resume being shortest of all the greats left. His 5 years of greatness is amongst the best 5 years of all time.

Maybe not in war or Era+. As both those maybe affected by the times

But 3 CY, 3 triple crowns and 2 BPOT WS.
Not to mention his overall WS eliteness 8 games with 50+ innings and a .95 Era.

Those achievements are by far the best available pitcher.

The magnitude of his 5 season span is enough for me to consider him next pitcher(not saying I would vote for him or not)

LHG · 2025-03-22T17:09:41-0500

May want to look at the competition. Here's the ERA+ buckets:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Seasons Ranked
Clayton Kershaw	1	2	0	4	1	1	2	2	0	13
Grover Alexander	1	0	0	1	4	1	0	1	8	16
Justin Verlander	1	0	0	2	2	0	1	3	4	13
Mordecai Brown	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	2	2	10
Roy Halladay	0	0	1	0	2	3	3	0	2	11
Tom Seaver	0	1	0	1	1	0	4	2	4	13
Kid Nichols	0	0	0	2	2	1	1	4	2	12
Kevin Brown	1	0	0	0	3	2	1	1	0	8
Max Scherzer	0	0	0	1	3	1	3	0	2	10
Hal Newhouser	0	2	0	0	1	1	2	1	1	8
Zack Greinke	2	0	0	0	0	1	1	2	4	10
Johan Santana	0	0	1	0	2	2	1	2	1	9
Bob Gibson	1	0	0	0	1	1	1	4	3	11
Carl Hubbell	0	1	0	0	2	0	2	2	4	11
Chris Sale	1	0	0	2	0	1	1	1	1	7
Whitey Ford	0	0	0	2	0	2	2	1	3	10
Mike Mussina	0	0	0	0	1	1	2	6	2	12
Ed Walsh	0	0	1	0	2	1	2	1	1	8
Curt Schilling	0	0	0	0	0	3	3	3	3	12
Sandy Koufax	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	0	1	6

LHG · 2025-03-22T17:10:17-0500

And my rudimentary scoring system:

Scoring	9	8	7	6	5	4	3	2	1
Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	9	16	0	24	5	4	6	4	0	68
Grover Alexander	9	0	0	6	20	4	0	2	8	49
Justin Verlander	9	0	0	12	10	0	3	6	4	44
Mordecai Brown	9	8	0	6	5	4	3	4	2	41
Roy Halladay	0	0	7	0	10	12	9	0	2	40
Tom Seaver	0	8	0	6	5	0	12	4	4	39
Kid Nichols	0	0	0	12	10	4	3	8	2	39
Kevin Brown	9	0	0	0	15	8	3	2	0	37
Max Scherzer	0	0	0	6	15	4	9	0	2	36
Hal Newhouser	0	16	0	0	5	4	6	2	1	34
Zack Greinke	18	0	0	0	0	4	3	4	4	33
Johan Santana	0	0	7	0	10	8	3	4	1	33
Bob Gibson	9	0	0	0	5	4	3	8	3	32
Carl Hubbell	0	8	0	0	10	0	6	4	4	32
Chris Sale	9	0	0	12	0	4	3	2	1	31
Whitey Ford	0	0	0	12	0	8	6	2	3	31
Mike Mussina	0	0	0	0	6	5	6	12	2	31
Ed Walsh	0	0	7	0	10	4	6	2	1	30
Curt Schilling	0	0	0	0	0	12	9	6	3	30
Sandy Koufax	0	8	7	0	5	4	3	0	1	28

msgkings322 · 2025-03-22T17:20:44-0500

calsnowskier said:
We are getting to the point where recency bias will play a HUGE role in the vote, I think. We just weren’t around to experience the second tier legends of yesteryear, so we can’t make the strong arguments for them the way we are able for the stars of the last 40-50 years.

That chart Old Sweater just posted leads me to look more closely at Greenberg and Manny Ramirez

I'm surprised he doesn't vote in these threads though

msgkings322 · 2025-03-22T17:22:57-0500

calsnowskier said:
I would say Kershaw and Spahn are the top pitchers on the board (pending Ced’s pending sales pitch for Alexander).

Probably 4 or 5 position players vying for the top of the mountain.

But Koufax is getting way more votes, so much for recency bias.

Gonna be Koufax vs ARod here probably...and no way ARod wins that

Meanwhile Bench and Berra splitting the catcher voters

MilkSpiller22 · 2025-03-22T17:59:14-0500

i do think my next 6 or so BPAs are all pitchers.

I have no problem with Koufax being next.

LHG · 2025-03-22T17:59:38-0500

LHG said:
Updated for #26:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)
20) Albert Pujols (2001-2022)
21) Pedro Martinez (1992-2009)
22) Jimmie Foxx (1925-1945)
23) Cy Young (1890-1911)
24) Lefty Grove (1925-1941)
25) Ken Griffey, Jr (1989-2010)
26) Christy Mathewson (1900-1916)

1876-1889 - 0
1890-1896 - 1
1897-1899 - 2
1900-1904 - 3
1905-1906 - 4
1907-1911 - 6
1912-1913 - 5
1914 - 6
1915-1916 - 7
1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1924 - 6
1925-1927 - 8
1928 - 7
1929-1935 - 4
1936-1937 - 5
1938 - 3
1939 - 4
1940 - 3
1941 - 5
1942-1945 - 4
1946-1950 - 3
1951 - 5
1952-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 5
1988 - 6
1989 - 7
1990-1991 - 6
1992-2000 - 7
2001-2003 - 8
2004-2007 - 7
2008 - 5
2009 - 4
2010 - 2
2011-2022 - 1
2023-2024 - 0

Updated for #27:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)
20) Albert Pujols (2001-2022)
21) Pedro Martinez (1992-2009)
22) Jimmie Foxx (1925-1945)
23) Cy Young (1890-1911)
24) Lefty Grove (1925-1941)
25) Ken Griffey, Jr (1989-2010)
26) Christy Mathewson (1900-1916)
27) Frank Robinson (1956-1976)

And, per @msgkings322 request, charts showing time periods represented:

msgkings322 · 2025-03-22T18:02:15-0500

LHG said:
Updated for #27:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)
20) Albert Pujols (2001-2022)
21) Pedro Martinez (1992-2009)
22) Jimmie Foxx (1925-1945)
23) Cy Young (1890-1911)
24) Lefty Grove (1925-1941)
25) Ken Griffey, Jr (1989-2010)
26) Christy Mathewson (1900-1916)
27) Frank Robinson (1956-1976)

And, per @msgkings322 request, charts showing time periods represented:
View attachment 392608
View attachment 392609

Exactly what I wanted to see, thanks

Cedrique · 2025-03-22T18:03:03-0500

msgkings322 said:
That chart Old Sweater just posted leads me to look more closely at Greenberg and Manny Ramirez

I'm surprised he doesn't vote in these threads though

Greenberg is a guy whose career numbers took a hit due to missing 3 years and some change to WWII. Speaking of that, on the pitching side Bob Feller is another guy who if not for the war would probably be at least mentioned by now.

LHG · 2025-03-22T18:03:26-0500

msgkings322 said:
Exactly what I wanted to see, thanks

Working on fixing them as some time periods were excluded.

msgkings322 · 2025-03-22T18:07:01-0500

LHG said:
Working on fixing them as some time periods were excluded.

Works just fine for me now but great!

Clayton · 2025-03-22T18:09:39-0500

MilkSpiller22 said:
i do think my next 6 or so BPAs are all pitchers.

I think I'm the exact opposite. Outside of Kershaw, I think maybe 6 out of the next 7 are position players

Although maybe Ohtani can sneak in there

LHG · 2025-03-22T18:23:29-0500

msgkings322 said:
Works just fine for me now but great!

I updated them both through editing.

msgkings322 · 2025-03-22T18:28:23-0500

Clayton said:
I think I'm the exact opposite. Outside of Kershaw, I think maybe 6 out of the next 7 are position players

Although maybe Ohtani can sneak in there

He is both after all

msgkings322 · 2025-03-22T18:30:58-0500

LHG said:
I updated them both through editing.

Visually it looks cool, 2 big peaks and one smaller one in between

The disco era was a low point LOL

LHG · 2025-03-22T18:35:47-0500

msgkings322 said:
Visually it looks cool, 2 big peaks and one smaller one in between

The disco era was a low point LOL

I liked your idea of the chart but it took me awhile to sit down and do it. Look at the slow buildup at the beginning of MLB. First 13 years has no one represented (compared to only the last two years being the only other spot with no representation).

POLL Top 10 poll: #28 player ever

Who is the #28 player in baseball history? Vote for 3!!

Sandy Koufax

Alex Rodriguez

Yogi Berra

Johnny Bench

Clayton Kershaw

Mel Ott

Roberto Clemente

Josh Gibson

Mike Trout

Nap Lajoie

Nolan Ryan

Shohei Ohtani

Oscar Charleston

Tom Seaver

Carl Yastrzemski

Eddie Collins

Joe Morgan

George Brett

Roy Campanella

Mariano Rivera

Miguel Cabrera

Grover Alexander

Cal Ripken Jr

Steve Carlton

Justin Verlander

Max Scherzer

Jim Palmer

Warren Spahn

Eddie Mathews

Billy Williams

Ernie Banks

Chipper Jones

Frank Thomas

Hank Greenberg

Other (name in comments)

Sarcastic F-wad

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Sarcastic F-wad

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Gorilla

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

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I'm just here to troll everyone

Gorilla

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

I'm just here to troll everyone

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Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

I'm just here to troll everyone

Well-Known Member

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

I'm just here to troll everyone

I'm just here to troll everyone

Former Californian. Hesitant Tennessean.

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