POLL Top 10 poll: #25 player ever

[Clayton]

I guess its time to get into Otts numbers.

63% of his HR happened in his home part with a 257 ft foul line. I'm not sure his game would hold up at all in more modern eras.

 

[calsnowskier]

This could be the spot Griffey ends up if I'm reading the nomination votes right

I don’t know about that. I would vote Mathewson or Yogi over Griffey. I think I would do Griffey over Koufax, legit, and Griffey over ARod for already stated reasons.

I don’t really LOVE any of the leading vote#getters this time around. But, tbf, I don’t have any players I am super in love with here, so…

 

[calsnowskier]

Looks like the 3 I voted for might not make it to the next round.

I am probably in that boat as well. I have only voted for Kershaw so far, but I am thinking of going with Robinson and Bench as well, so I will probably be shut out.

 

[msgkings322]

I don’t know about that. I would vote Mathewson or Yogi over Griffey. I think I would do Griffey over Koufax, legit, and Griffey over ARod for already stated reasons.

I don’t really LOVE any of the leading vote#getters this time around. But, tbf, I don’t have any players I am super in love with here, so…

I don’t mean I support him here I’m just making a guess based on him leading this nomination cycle and getting close to winning recently

 

[calsnowskier]

I guess its time to get into Otts numbers.

63% of his HR happened in his home part with a 257 ft foul line. I'm not sure his game would hold up at all in more modern eras.

Right field lines at the Big A and Fenway are pretty cheep as well.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don’t mean I support him here I’m just making a guess based on him leading this nomination cycle and getting close to winning recently

I understood what you were saying. It makes sense. This may be where the obvious picks no longer exist and the votes will start getting pretty random.

Serious traffic now.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I understood what you were saying. It makes sense. This may be where the obvious picks no longer exist and the votes will start getting pretty random.

Serious traffic now.

The problem with “traffic” is that the debate for player will be in the runoffs. But the runoffs don’t usually get the right players to debate.

I think there are a few fun debates

1. Ott vs Frank robinson

2. Collins vs lajoie vs morgan(winner would join debate 1)

3. Kershaw vs verlander

4. Seaver vs Gibson vs koufax

5. Alexander vs Mathewson

6. Winner of 3 vs winner of 4 vs winner of 5

7. Griffey vs trout.

 

[calsnowskier]

The problem with “traffic” is that the debate for player will be in the runoffs. But the runoffs don’t usually get the right players to debate.

I think there are a few fun debates

1. Ott vs Frank robinson

2. Collins vs lajoie vs morgan(winner would join debate 1)

3. Kershaw vs verlander

4. Seaver vs Gibson vs koufax

5. Alexander vs Mathewson

6. Winner of 3 vs winner of 4 vs winner of 5

7. Griffey vs trout.

IMHO (and I understand there is room for counter opinion), Trout v Griffey has been settled. I would promote Trout to the Ott v Robinson debate.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

IMHO (and I understand there is room for counter opinion), Trout v Griffey has been settled. I would promote Trout to the Ott v Robinson debate.

It’s been settled for you. lol. Not most for most of us.

 

[calsnowskier]

It’s been settled for you. lol. Not most for most of us.

Hence, “IMHO (and I understand there is room for counter opinion)”

 

[LHG]

Looks like the 3 I voted for might not make it to the next round.

Me too. I voted for Trout, Collins and Kershaw. None are making it beyond this round for this spot.

 

[LHG]

The problem with “traffic” is that the debate for player will be in the runoffs. But the runoffs don’t usually get the right players to debate.

I think there are a few fun debates

1. Ott vs Frank robinson

2. Collins vs lajoie vs morgan(winner would join debate 1)

3. Kershaw vs verlander

4. Seaver vs Gibson vs koufax

5. Alexander vs Mathewson

6. Winner of 3 vs winner of 4 vs winner of 5

7. Griffey vs trout.

I tried to bring up Collins vs Lajoie vs Morgan in the last round (in the final runoff) and Kershaw vs Verlander, Seaver vs Gibson vs Koufax and Alexander vs Matthewson (with Nichols and Spahn thrown in). Information for those pitchers, both ERA+ rankings and summaries based on cal's methodology, are in this thread.

 

[Clayton]

The problem with “traffic” is that the debate for player will be in the runoffs. But the runoffs don’t usually get the right players to debate.

I think there are a few fun debates

1. Ott vs Frank robinson

2. Collins vs lajoie vs morgan(winner would join debate 1)

3. Kershaw vs verlander

4. Seaver vs Gibson vs koufax

5. Alexander vs Mathewson

6. Winner of 3 vs winner of 4 vs winner of 5

7. Griffey vs trout.

Is Kershaw v Verlander really a thing? Kershaw seems like he is an entire tier or two ahead of Verlander

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Is Kershaw v Verlander really a thing? Kershaw seems like he is an entire tier or two ahead of Verlander

Interesting. I actually have verlander ahead of kershaw. I think.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I tried to bring up Collins vs Lajoie vs Morgan in the last round (in the final runoff) and Kershaw vs Verlander, Seaver vs Gibson vs Koufax and Alexander vs Matthewson (with Nichols and Spahn thrown in). Information for those pitchers, both ERA+ rankings and summaries based on cal's methodology, are in this thread.

Yea. But you and cal bring up adjusted stats too much. Most around here don’t use it as much as you guys do.

 

[LHG]

Yea. But you and cal bring up adjusted stats too much. Most around here don’t use it as much as you guys do.

Did you look at the 11 pitchers that I listed earlier? The chart has adjusted but the summaries do not.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Did you look at the 11 pitchers that I listed earlier? The chart has adjusted but the summaries do not.

I saw it.. but again.. it was ERA+... I don't think the bucket system is the ideal system for this... have been saying that throughout the whole time...

rankings are more important than buckets... and then when you gave numeric value to it, it just weakened the entire the table... its the old what's the difference between 189 and 190...

but all in all adjusted stats have so many flaws that it just makes no sense to me for it to be the king stat for the analysis...

you have to understand what adjusted stats are...the + stats compare players to the AVERAGE player at that stat... WAR compares players to a specific level of statistics per every stat measured in WAR...

its one thing to have a special season(which you can define however you want)... but the difference between even 170 and 190 is basically nothing...

 

[DHoey]

i am a numbers person... very hard for me to look past numbers... i do not like adjusted numbers, but i admit they are the best commercial stats for a quick analysis... some here use them as gospel which surprises me...

but its very hard for some of us to add subjectivity to our argument... and thats what the problem with catchers are... we have to add a lot to catchers to make them comparable...

and then if we ignore offense all together for catchers, then the next 30 top players should be catchers...

I don’t think you have to ignore offense all together. Just understand that they have responsibilities that no one else on the field has. If you consider and outfielder being split 50/50 offense defense, then maybe think of a catcher as 40/40/20 offense/defense/handling a pitching staff

 

[calsnowskier]

Yea. But you and cal bring up adjusted stats too much. Most around here don’t use it as much as you guys do.

Raw numbers are too era-dependent

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t think you have to ignore offense all together. Just understand that they have responsibilities that no one else on the field has. If you consider and outfielder being split 50/50 offense defense, then maybe think of a catcher as 40/40/20 offense/defense/handling a pitching staff

again, ideally I agree... but do we have the stats to show handling a pitching staff?? is this an eye test thing, or what is said about the player??

you should know media and what other players think about about other players is very political... they don't often give the right answers... just the answers that is expected from them...

its the old complaint about gold gloves... that it was almost a popularity contest...