POLL Top 10 poll: #25 player ever

[Clayton]

Okay, here are my pitcher score without Kershaw's 2020 season being counted:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	9​	16​	0​	24​	5​	4​	6​	4​	0​	68​
Christy Matthewson	18​	0​	0​	0​	15​	12​	0​	6​	1​	52​
Grover Alexander	9​	0​	0​	6​	20​	4​	0​	2​	8​	49​
Justin Verlander	9​	0​	0​	12​	10​	0​	3​	6​	4​	44​
Tom Seaver	0​	8​	0​	6​	5​	0​	12​	4​	4​	39​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	12​	10​	4​	3​	8​	2​	39​
Bob Gibson	9​	0​	0​	0​	5​	4​	3​	8​	3​	32​
Sandy Koufax	0​	8​	7​	0​	5​	4​	3​	2​	1​	30​
Warren Spahn	0​	0​	7​	6​	0​	0​	0​	2​	8​	23​

I get that Kershaw might be ahead of Matthewson but the playoffs couldn't be further apart. I could see Kershaw coming off the board but not for another 8-10 players

 

[DHoey]

agreed... but the math just doesnt math for catchers... how much do you boost for defense??

It is interesting, players get 3-5 AB's a game, catchers play defense for 27-40 AB's a game. They call 90-150 pitches a game. They are involved in every single out produced in a baseball game.

I've said it before, if greatness was only based on stats, we wouldn't really need a discussion.

 

[Clayton]

write in

Who is Josh Gibson? A look back at the baseball slugging legend taking over MLB records

Josh Gibson became the new leader in multiple MLB statistical categories with ***** Leagues numbers added in. Here's what to know about the slugger.

www.nbcdfw.com

I think this is also my third vote. I'll lock in Josh Gibson, too.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It is interesting, players get 3-5 AB's a game, catchers play defense for 27-40 AB's a game. They call 90-150 pitches a game. They are involved in every single out produced in a baseball game.

I've said it before, if greatness was only based on stats, we wouldn't really need a discussion.

again i agree... i think most of us do... the problem with catchers is there offensive numbers, the ones that are easiest to compare with the rest of the positions, are just not comparable...

i am all in for giving catcher bonus... but then even that is so weird to me... because if a catcher is now making it because of defense, then shouldnt we focus more on defense than offense for catchers?? does that now mean Bench and Yogi are NOT the best??

does that make Pudge the best catcher in baseball history??

 

[calsnowskier]

I think this is also my third vote. I'll lock in Josh Gibson, too.

If Gibson gets ANY traction, I am good with moving him to the top of the catchers pile. That is not a defendable position, but he has serious legend factor attached that I willing to blindly follow that.

 

[calsnowskier]

Coincidentally, I first entered Gibson into the top slot in this poll, but changed it to Charleston since he actually received noms earlier in the project.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If Gibson gets ANY traction, I am good with moving him to the top of the catchers pile. That is not a defendable position, but he has serious legend factor attached that I willing to blindly follow that.

but isnt oscar the better player via legend and lore...

 

[calsnowskier]

but isnt oscar the better player via legend and lore...

Seeing as I legit never heard his name before this project…

No.

 

[DHoey]

again i agree... i think most of us do... the problem with catchers is there offensive numbers, the ones that are easiest to compare with the rest of the positions, are just not comparable...

i am all in for giving catcher bonus... but then even that is so weird to me... because if a catcher is now making it because of defense, then shouldnt we focus more on defense than offense for catchers?? does that now mean Bench and Yogi are NOT the best??

does that make Pudge the best catcher in baseball history??

I would have zero problems with Pudge above Bench.

As people who really appreciate baseball for what it is and how its played, we owe it to ourselves to not just be bean counters. And we wouldn't be here at this point in the list if we weren't not just baseball fans, but baseball people.

 

[Clayton]

If Gibson gets ANY traction, I am good with moving him to the top of the catchers pile. That is not a defendable position, but he has serious legend factor attached that I willing to blindly follow that.

I go think best player from the league is a bit abstract when compared to other players from a stats standpoint but I think he almost certainly would've succeeded if he was born on a different day.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would have zero problems with Pudge above Bench.

As people who really appreciate baseball for what it is and how its played, we owe it to ourselves to not just be bean counters. And we wouldn't be here at this point in the list if we weren't not just baseball fans, but baseball people.

i am a numbers person... very hard for me to look past numbers... i do not like adjusted numbers, but i admit they are the best commercial stats for a quick analysis... some here use them as gospel which surprises me...

but its very hard for some of us to add subjectivity to our argument... and thats what the problem with catchers are... we have to add a lot to catchers to make them comparable...

and then if we ignore offense all together for catchers, then the next 30 top players should be catchers...

 

[calsnowskier]

When it comes to ranking catchers, we NEED to factor in “legend” more than any other position. No one here ever watch Josh Gibson. Very few here saw Yogi. Same with Bench. Most of us saw Kid and Pudge. But even those of us who saw any of these play only saw them from a fan’s perspective and in a VERY limited sample size. There is no way any of us are truly qualified to have a unique take on any of them.

This is why I am more than willing to lean on “legend” a lot more for catchers than I am for other positions. And why I am willing to bow to the Gibson legend, even though I seriously doubt that legend is accurate. I never heard any critical takes of any of the n-League players. They are ALL glowing reviews of how great and powerful they were. Even Mays, who only played in the N-Leagues as a part time player while he was in HS has been described as the clear best player on the field, even though he hardly played on his team. But I am willing to bow to Gibson’s legend because I always heard him talked about in a special elevated tier to everyone else (along with Paige)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

When it comes to ranking catchers, we NEED to factor in “legend” more than any other position. No one here ever watch Josh Gibson. Very few here saw Yogi. Same with Bench. Most of us saw Kid and Pudge. But even those of us who saw any of these play only saw them from a fan’s perspective and in a VERY limited sample size. There is no way any of us are truly qualified to have a unique take on any of them.

This is why I am more than willing to lean on “legend” a lot more for catchers than I am for other positions. And why I am willing to bow to the Gibson legend, even though I seriously doubt that legend is accurate. I never heard any critical takes of any of the n-League players. They are ALL glowing reviews of how great and powerful they were. Even Mays, who only played in the N-Leagues as a part time player while he was in HS has been described as the clear best player on the field, even though he hardly played on his team. But I am willing to bow to Gibson’s legend because I always heard him talked about in a special elevated tier to everyone else (along with Paige)

IDK... i dont like the artificial inclusion... i know this never was an MLB only project... but i do think it hurts what we did previously once we decide to artificially place players in...

thats why in most lists you will see paige, Gibson or charleston much earlier... because it is more in honour of the league.... not a WE RAN OUT OF PLAYERS WE LIKE SO WE WILL VOTE THEM IN...

so at this point, i would really hope we go all MLB...

 

[msgkings322]

Putting up a quick scoring system based on the ERA+ season buckets (9 points for each 200+ season, 8 points for 190-199, 7 points for 180-189, etc), here is how I'd score these pitchers. Obviously, there would be more to look at but this may help the discussion:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	18​	16​	0​	24​	5​	4​	6​	4​	0​	77​
Christy Matthewson	18​	0​	0​	0​	15​	12​	0​	6​	1​	52​
Grover Alexander	9​	0​	0​	6​	20​	4​	0​	2​	8​	49​
Justin Verlander	9​	0​	0​	12​	10​	0​	3​	6​	4​	44​
Tom Seaver	0​	8​	0​	6​	5​	0​	12​	4​	4​	39​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	12​	10​	4​	3​	8​	2​	39​
Bob Gibson	9​	0​	0​	0​	5​	4​	3​	8​	3​	32​
Sandy Koufax	0​	8​	7​	0​	5​	4​	3​	2​	1​	30​
Warren Spahn	0​	0​	7​	6​	0​	0​	0​	2​	8​	23​

Thanks LHG, I have my answer...Kershaw is my pitcher vote from now on. Maybe because he's still playing he gets no love here, but I noticed a couple weeks ago he should be on the radar. Verlander too.

 

[msgkings322]

@calsnowskier voted Other for Clay Kershaw, he will get a vote from me from now on, please add him to future lists

 

[msgkings322]

This could be the spot Griffey ends up if I'm reading the nomination votes right

 

[calsnowskier]

@calsnowskier voted Other for Clay Kershaw, he will get a vote from me from now on, please add him to future lists

He has 3 votes this round. A vote guarantees inclusion on the next list. Ftr, Josh Gibson received 2 “other” votes as well, so he will be on the next list as well.

 

[Clayton]

This could be the spot Griffey ends up if I'm reading the nomination votes right

I'd imagine he is the heavy favorite at this point. Outside shot at Mathewson I think

 

[jon2tanman]

Looks like the 3 I voted for might not make it to the next round.

 

[jon2tanman]

Went with Robinson, Nap, and Ott.