POLL Top 10 poll: #25 player ever

[calsnowskier]

I have a soft rule that players with 3 MVPs get extra love in the rotation (hence Campanella’s constant appearances). I should probably extend that same rule to CYs.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I had Kershaw below Alexander, Matthewson, Seaver and Nichols. No longer. He is the next pitcher that needs to be ranked (any probably should have been ranked a bit earlier but I'm okay with this spot for him).

kershaw has a few problems that make me not choose him over the others...

1. He is only credited to have 1 WS title, and even that title he was not BPOT(best pitcher on team) nor did he have a good playoff that year.... so he really doesnt get the post sesaon bonus...

2. you showed that he had 2 seasons with 200 or better ERA+ but in both those seasons he pitched under 200 innings...( one of them being only 58)

3. he really didnt have any SPECIAL seasons...


Personally, i have verlander well ahead of kershaw... and i think if you add Verlander to your Table you would have him as the new LEADER in your formula...

 

[jarntt]

How do you pronounce “Lajoie”, anyway? When I read it, I think “La Joy”, but I think I heard it pronounced “La Jew Way” with a softer “j” sound (like au jou).

Hey hey, there's no need for that

 

[calsnowskier]

2. you showed that he had 2 seasons with 200 or better ERA+ but in both those seasons he pitched under 200 innings...( one of them being only 58)

Damnit, LHG. Don’t make me have to double check your arguments…

 

[calsnowskier]

Hey hey, there's no need for that

 

[calsnowskier]

kershaw has a few problems that make me not choose him over the others...

1. He is only credited to have 1 WS title, and even that title he was not BPOT(best pitcher on team) nor did he have a good playoff that year.... so he really doesnt get the post sesaon bonus...

2. you showed that he had 2 seasons with 200 or better ERA+ but in both those seasons he pitched under 200 innings...( one of them being only 58)

3. he really didnt have any SPECIAL seasons...


Personally, i have verlander well ahead of kershaw... and i think if you add Verlander to your Table you would have him as the new LEADER in your formula...

As for the his post-season track record, I would argue that he was grossly mismanaged in pretty much all his “blow ups” in the post season. Doc was depending on his GOAT pitcher to carry the team and left him in too long to take the drubbings he got. Both because of Doc being a moron and because the doggies had HORRIBLE bullies at the time.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

As for the his post-season track record, I would argue that he was grossly mismanaged in pretty much all his “blow ups” in the post season. Doc was depending on his GOAT pitcher to carry the team and left him in too long to take the drubbings he got. Both because of Doc being a moron and because the doggies had HORRIBLE bullies at the time.

sure... thats fine... but doesnt change his stats... and again, when the dodgers DID WIN the WS, he was basically just there...

i do want to know why he doesnt get credit for the 2024 WS... do you have to be on the post season roster??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Damnit, LHG. Don’t make me have to double check your arguments…

actually it was an unfair comment... he did only have 58 innings but that was 2020... covid shortened... sure, he shouldnt be given credit for having over 200 era+ there, but its also not as terrible as it sounds...

and i was being unfair about his post season because he was good in 2020...

 

[Clayton]

I voted Arod and Frank Robinson. Open for someone to convince me on a third

 

[calsnowskier]

actually it was an unfair comment... he did only have 58 innings but that was 2020... covid shortened... sure, he shouldnt be given credit for having over 200 era+ there, but its also not as terrible as it sounds...

and i was being unfair about his post season because he was good in 2020...

1st, I was just ribbing LHG. We go back almost 20 years. I wasn’t serious with my “attack”.

2nd, I think it was a legit point that that season should not count. It is a SSS season, and should not carry the same weight as full seasons.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

1st, I was just ribbing LHG. We go back almost 20 years. I wasn’t serious with my “attack”.

2nd, I think it was a legit point that that season should not count. It is a SSS season, and should not carry the same weight as full seasons.

no, it is a legit point... i was just giving context to the point... as covid season is kind of a good excuse to not pitch over 200 innings... LOL...

and also it was to retract my point about him in the 2020 post season... because he was BPOT, and he did have a pretty good post season, especially WS....

so he actually deserves the post season bonus....

 

[calsnowskier]

I voted Arod and Frank Robinson. Open for someone to convince me on a third

If ARod is on your board, your vote should be clear. But for nomination purposes, I think Kershaw is the clear pitcher pick, or take your pick between Bench and Yogi. I prefer Bench, but I acknowledge the arguments in favor of Yogi.

I still have 2 votes to cast (I went Kershaw with my first), and I think I am going Robinson and Bench with those 2 votes.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If ARod is on your board, your vote should be clear. But for nomination purposes, I think Kershaw is the clear pitcher pick, or take your pick between Bench and Yogi. I prefer Bench, but I acknowledge the arguments in favor of Yogi.

I still have 2 votes to cast (I went Kershaw with my first), and I think I am going Robinson and Bench with those 2 votes.

i do find it weird that you now have Kershaw as the top pitcher..

during the Johnson vs Maddux vs Martinez, you had Martinez as the lowest simply because of innings pitched...

Kershaw only had 5 seasons of over 200 IP... thats also why his ERA+ is so high...

if you want a modern pitcher, it is clearly Verlander, similar best seasons but 12 seasons over 200 innings...

 

[calsnowskier]

i do find it weird that you now have Kershaw as the top pitcher..

during the Johnson vs Maddux vs Martinez, you had Martinez as the lowest simply because of innings pitched...

Kershaw only had 5 seasons of over 200 IP... thats also why his ERA+ is so high...

if you want a modern pitcher, it is clearly Verlander, similar best seasons but 12 seasons over 200 innings...

Good arguments. I will need to look closely. Kershaw won’t advance here, regardless, so I don’t feel any urgency to lock in my opinion just yet.

 

[Clayton]

If ARod is on your board, your vote should be clear. But for nomination purposes, I think Kershaw is the clear pitcher pick, or take your pick between Bench and Yogi. I prefer Bench, but I acknowledge the arguments in favor of Yogi.

I still have 2 votes to cast (I went Kershaw with my first), and I think I am going Robinson and Bench with those 2 votes.

I mentioned earlier I do think Griffey is ahead of Berra. I might have to look at Ott.

Bench is likely my pick but it is based a bit me trying to factor in what Molina did for the Cardinals and then making him a central batting figure which Molina even in his prime wasnt quite there. I got years of Cardinals radio/TV telling me that Bench was the best ever and they dont even particularly care for the Reds and they're picking him over the guy from the Hill.

 

[DHoey]

The lack of catcher support here is mind jogging.

 

[LHG]

kershaw has a few problems that make me not choose him over the others...

1. He is only credited to have 1 WS title, and even that title he was not BPOT(best pitcher on team) nor did he have a good playoff that year.... so he really doesnt get the post sesaon bonus...

2. you showed that he had 2 seasons with 200 or better ERA+ but in both those seasons he pitched under 200 innings...( one of them being only 58)

3. he really didnt have any SPECIAL seasons...


Personally, i have verlander well ahead of kershaw... and i think if you add Verlander to your Table you would have him as the new LEADER in your formula...

Uh, Verlander is in that table. Check again.
I almost didn't count that 2nd Kershaw 200+ but it was the COVID season so it was considered a full season.

 

[LHG]

Okay, here are my pitcher score without Kershaw's 2020 season being counted:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	9​	16​	0​	24​	5​	4​	6​	4​	0​	68​
Christy Matthewson	18​	0​	0​	0​	15​	12​	0​	6​	1​	52​
Grover Alexander	9​	0​	0​	6​	20​	4​	0​	2​	8​	49​
Justin Verlander	9​	0​	0​	12​	10​	0​	3​	6​	4​	44​
Tom Seaver	0​	8​	0​	6​	5​	0​	12​	4​	4​	39​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	12​	10​	4​	3​	8​	2​	39​
Bob Gibson	9​	0​	0​	0​	5​	4​	3​	8​	3​	32​
Sandy Koufax	0​	8​	7​	0​	5​	4​	3​	2​	1​	30​
Warren Spahn	0​	0​	7​	6​	0​	0​	0​	2​	8​	23​

 

[Clayton]

Berra vs Bench is interesting. Berra's advanced metrics seem to be held back by the fact that it was easier to throw out runners back in the day. I dont have much context for this other than maybe the baserunners were way better in Bench's era

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The lack of catcher support here is mind jogging.

agreed... but the math just doesnt math for catchers... how much do you boost for defense??