Top 10 poll #14: #14 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #14 player in baseball history. Poll closes Sunday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

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@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007

 

[calsnowskier]

Roger Clemens 1984 - 2007

7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 CY, 4 top 10 MVP, 4 more season w MVP votes, 11 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 7, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 4

354-184 W-L
4672/1580 K/BB
707/118 GS/CG
4916.2 IP

Randy Johnson 1989 - 2009

5 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 1 top 10 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 more season w MVP votes, 10 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 4, K 9, WHIP 3, K/BB 1

303-166 W-L
4875/1497 K/BB
603/100 GS/CG
4135.1 IP

Shohei Ohtani 2018 - current

3 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, ROY

Bold: NA

38-19 W-L
608/173 K/BB
86/1 GS/CG
481.2 IP

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Shohei is getting WAY too much credit as a pitcher. He is good, but he has really only had 1 good season as a pitcher. If he were JUST a pitcher, he would be viewed as a low-end #2, strong #3, but with serious questions since he doesnt have a strong pitching track record.

 

[jon2tanman]

These are always fun to look through.


Top 100 Pitchers of All-Time

https://www.thetoptens.com/baseball/greatest-pitchers-of-all-time/

The Top Ten Pitchers of All-Time | Pitcher List

The Greatest Pitchers of All Time

 

[TheGoodMan19]

I think Shohei is getting WAY too much credit as a pitcher. He is good, but he has really only had 1 good season as a pitcher. If he were JUST a pitcher, he would be viewed as a low-end #2, strong #3, but with serious questions since he doesnt have a strong pitching track record.

And i wonder how much the two way player stuff is overemphasized. There's been plenty of great hitting pitchers, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Tom Glavine. Had they been allowed to DH on off days, could they have put up good numbers? Certainly better than the other pitchers on the team.

 

[calsnowskier]

Rickey Henderson (LF) 1980 - 2001

1 MVP, 5 top 10 MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG, 3 SS

111.1, 57.6

Bold: R - 5, SB -12, BB - 4, OPS - 1, all time SB, all time R

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 0
140 - 6
120 - 8

Tris Speaker (CF) 1907 - 1928

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 1 additional season receiving MVP votes (MVP only given in 4 years of his career)

135.0, 62.1

Bold: RBI - 1, 2B - 8, HR - 1, OPS - 1, TB - 1, all time 2B

OPS+ buckets

180 - 3
160 - 6
140 - 6
120 - 2

Shohei Ohtani (DH) 2018 - current

3 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, ROY, 3 ASG

28.7, 28.7

Bold: R - 1, 3B - 1, HR - 2, RBI - 1, OPS - 2, TB - 2

OPS+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 0
140 - 3
120 - 1

 

[calsnowskier]

And i wonder how much the two way player stuff is overemphasized. There's been plenty of great hitting pitchers, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Tom Glavine. Had they been allowed to DH on off days, could they have put up good numbers? Certainly better than the other pitchers on the team.

Zambrano, Bumgarner, Greinke, Cain…

All good hitters, but they didn’t put up MVP level batting numbers. Ohtani DID put up CY contending numbers at least once (a second season was strong, he just didn’t have the innings). Ohtani IS something special, but he has not demonstrated it NEARLY long enough to belong on this list, at this point, YET. And I really don’t think an argument can be made against that stance.

Appreciate what you are watching while you are watching it. But don’t fucking bonkers with your recency bias.

 

[LHG]

Zambrano, Bumgarner, Greinke, Cain…

All good hitters, but they didn’t put up MVP level batting numbers. Ohtani DID put up CY contending numbers at least once (a second season was strong, he just didn’t have the innings). Ohtani IS something special, but he has not demonstrated it NEARLY long enough to belong on this list, at this point, YET. And I really don’t think an argument can be made against that stance.

Appreciate what you are watching while you are watching it. But don’t fucking bonkers with your recency bias.

Totally agree. It was for exaggeration but I do still stand behind my statement that the votes are being carried by a monster 2024 season at the plate and the fact that he can throw some pitches when healthy enough to do so. Your analysis makes me ashamed that I even granted him Top 50 status already. If his career to end before 2025 season even started, 10 years from now he may not even be considered more than a special mention in Top 100 lists.

 

[Cedrique]

I think Shohei is getting WAY too much credit as a pitcher. He is good, but he has really only had 1 good season as a pitcher. If he were JUST a pitcher, he would be viewed as a low-end #2, strong #3, but with serious questions since he doesnt have a strong pitching track record.

I think the track record is the big thing. IMO he was really good as a pitcher for 3 seasons but 2 of them he only had 23 starts. The reason I don't have him anywhere near this high is because he hasn't done it long enough.

 

[Cedrique]

Totally agree. It was for exaggeration but I do still stand behind my statement that the votes are being carried by a monster 2024 season at the plate and the fact that he can throw some pitches when healthy enough to do so. Your analysis makes me ashamed that I even granted him Top 50 status already. If his career to end before 2025 season even started, 10 years from now he may not even be considered more than a special mention in Top 100 lists.

I think "can throw some pitches" is a big understatement. 481 IP, 348 H, 608Ks, career WHIP under 1.1- those are some damn good numbers.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Zambrano, Bumgarner, Greinke, Cain…

All good hitters, but they didn’t put up MVP level batting numbers. Ohtani DID put up CY contending numbers at least once (a second season was strong, he just didn’t have the innings). Ohtani IS something special, but he has not demonstrated it NEARLY long enough to belong on this list, at this point, YET. And I really don’t think an argument can be made against that stance.

Appreciate what you are watching while you are watching it. But don’t fucking bonkers with your recency bias.

Their number might have improved with daily use. Ohtani has had the game bent to his use. No one was allowed to do this before. And I'm fine with it. Anything to promote the game.

And, like I've said, he's an unfinished mystery novel. The ending might not be as good as the opening. Seen too many players who I thought would have been top 25 of all time fade away. Doc Gooden, Junior, Mattingly, Saberhagen. Hell, I can remember Mark Fidrych.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Shohei is being mentioned. But that is all. He ain’t winning. But you also have to realize he is more than just a current stud. Winning 3 mvps puts him in a league of less than 20 players. Mentioning him is still more valid than mentioning most other players on the current list of potential nominees.

And being a unicorn and being the first mvp with good offensive and pitching numbers means something.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Their number might have improved with daily use. Ohtani has had the game bent to his use. No one was allowed to do this before. And I'm fine with it. Anything to promote the game.

And, like I've said, he's an unfinished mystery novel. The ending might not be as good as the opening. Seen too many players who I thought would have been top 25 of all time fade away. Doc Gooden, Junior, Mattingly, Saberhagen. Hell, I can remember Mark Fidrych.

But how many of those mentioned players won three major awards. Only saberhagan won more than one.

But you could have also mentioned DeGrom and lincecum and Roger Maris.

 

[LHG]

I think "can throw some pitches" is a big understatement. 481 IP, 348 H, 608Ks, career WHIP under 1.1- those are some damn good numbers.

Counter balance to getting votes as high as Top 10. A lot of pitchers have thrown that well for 2 to 3 seasons. And his offensive numbers make him better than those guys but my constant argument against inclusion anywhere nearly this high has to do with the assumption voters seem to be making is that he is guaranteed to continue being really good for a long time.

Let's say he comes back in this May as a reliever for the Dodgers and works his way to making 5 inning starts by late July. He looks good but something happens and the Dodger shut him down from throwing in late August due to some pain in his throwing arm. He puts in about 20 games worth of throwing and posts something like 55 IP, 2.89 ERA, 1.045 WHIP. Meanwhile, he as a good offensive year (say 140 OPS+) but not like he did in 2024. The following offseason, its announced that he needs a 3rd TJ surgery. Ohtani makes the painful decision to hang up his pitching glove and has the surgery. He returns in 2026 as a DH, recovering from 3rd surgery. There is talk that he'll start fielding drills after 2026 to be considered in the outfield but the Dodgers and Ohtani ultimately decide, after 2026, that they need to preserve his throwing arm as much as possible and just make him a full time DH the rest of his contract. He goes on to have a successful career as a DH, with some monster seasons like 2024 in about 2 of them, but his last 10 years has an aggregate OPS+ of 120.

In this scenario, who says that he is Top 15, let alone Top 50, of all of baseball.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Ohtani has only 7 seasons in baseball. But it is amongst the best first 7 seasons we have ever seen. While doing something that none of us have ever seen.

It’s not surprising that we would mention him as one of the best players of all time already. But until he wins a spot. He will only be talk.

 

[calsnowskier]

But how many of those mentioned players won three major awards. Only saberhagan won more than one.

But you could have also mentioned DeGrom and lincecum and Roger Maris.

King Felix and Campanella.

Campanella, in particular, belongs in the discussion before Shohei AT THIS POINT.

 

[Cedrique]

King Felix and Campanella.

Campanella, in particular, belongs in the discussion before Shohei AT THIS POINT.

If we're talking about Felix, I think I like Johan Santana slightly more. But I have a trouble taking more recent pitchers over a position player. I give a bump to the guys that used to put up some Complete Games and shutouts. Each generation there is a dropoff. Clemens and Johnson are probably the last couple of pitchers where those stats are more than just a fluky game here and there.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

But how many of those mentioned players won three major awards. Only saberhagan won more than one.

But you could have also mentioned DeGrom and lincecum and Roger Maris.

Denny McLain. Corey Kluber. Dale Murphy

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Denny McLain. Corey Kluber. Dale Murphy

lol. I didn’t say there are not players who had multiple awards who fizzled out.

 

[Cedrique]

Denny McLain. Corey Kluber. Dale Murphy

These guys don't apply but on a similar note, maybe we should do a "one hit wonder" poll. Off the top of my head, Fydrich has to be up there.