POLL Top 10 poll: #13 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)

Who is the #13 player ever? This poll will close Tuesday AM.

Vote for your top 3.

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[calsnowskier]

I think Roger’s time has come. He is the best pitcher ever (imho) and I think there is a decent drop between Wagner and the next group of hitters.

I may actually be in support of a run of multiple pitchers at this point. But I am not certain yet who my other 2 noms will go to at this point.

 

[calsnowskier]

I am open to arguments, but I think this is my shortlist at the moment (past Clemens)…

Maddux
Young
Schmidt
Henderson
Robinson (Frank)
Pujols
Bench
Ott
Speaker

 

[DHoey]

Randy>Maddux>Clemens

 

[Clayton]

I am open to arguments, but I think this is my shortlist at the moment (past Clemens)…

Maddux
Young
Schmidt
Henderson
Robinson (Frank)
Pujols
Bench
Ott
Speaker

I think Maddux and Schmidt are similar. Robinson and Speaker are similar. Clemens just above that.

Pedro and Trout are similar. Bench just below that.

Pujols and DiMaggio I think maybe in similar buckets although very hard to say they are similar.

Cy Young pitched 3-4 fastball a game and his calling card is longevity. Not sure how to even remotely compare that to a modern player.

 

[calsnowskier]

Randy>Maddux>Clemens

Not a ridiculous opinion. Care to back it up to try to convince me? I would love the feed back.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

RJ, Rickey and Michael Jack

Almost went with the Yankee Clipper or Double XX

 

[DHoey]

Not a ridiculous opinion. Care to back it up to try to convince me? I would love the feed back.

I think Clemens was a roided out asshole that got the media benefit of playing in New York and Boston

Randy got punished from playing in the obscurity of the Pacific Northwest.

Maddux had better command, did more with less, fielded the position better and was a decent hitter.

 

[Clayton]

Randy got punished from playing in the obscurity of the Pacific Northwest.

He was extremely visible in Arizona imo.

In terms of Maddux vs Johnson its popularity vs advanced metrics. The advanced metrics point to Maddux. He has two ERA+ seasons that blow the doors off anything Johnson did.

Maddux only has 4 Cy Youngs, 1 2nd place, 1 3rd place, 1 4th place, 1 5th place.
Johnson has 5 Cy Youngs, 3 2nd place finishes, 1 3rd place.

Johnson was the more respected pitcher. I do think they both have a great argument for going top 20.

 

[DHoey]

He was extremely visible in Arizona imo.

In terms of Maddux vs Johnson its popularity vs advanced metrics. The advanced metrics point to Maddux. He has two ERA+ seasons that blow the doors off anything Johnson did.

Maddux only has 4 Cy Youngs, 1 2nd place, 1 3rd place, 1 4th place, 1 5th place.
Johnson has 5 Cy Youngs, 3 2nd place finishes, 1 3rd place.

Johnson was the more respected pitcher. I do think they both have a great argument for going top 20.

Johnson wins two more cy young’s if he’s not in seattle for his early years.

Also, think about the parks he pitched in. kingdome, Arizona and Yankee Stadium. All hitter friendly

 

[Clayton]

Also, think about the parks he pitched in. kingdome, Arizona and Yankee Stadium. All hitter friendly

Era+ takes ballparks into account.

 

[steveringo]

Clemens was my idol in HS and college...

I think Pedro was better...

 

[steveringo]

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Clemens was a roided out asshole that got the media benefit of playing in New York and Boston

Randy got punished from playing in the obscurity of the Pacific Northwest.

Maddux had better command, did more with less, fielded the position better and was a decent hitter.

Clemens’ NY bias boost is a legit gripe, but his numbers are not affected by a media bias. The fact that he may be an asshole is completely immaterial. If he did use PEDs, it was during a time where they were not illegal and most of the players in the game used them as well.

As has been mentioned, Randy was very much recognized as a beast while in Seattle. But he also got attention in Arizona and New York. And he got a WS MVP, so he was not flying under the radar.

 

[Clayton]

Clemens’ NY bias boost is a legit gripe, but his numbers are not affected by a media bias. The fact that he may be an asshole is completely immaterial. If he did use PEDs, it was during a time where they were not illegal and most of the players in the game used them as well.

As has been mentioned, Randy was very much recognized as a beast while in Seattle. But he also got attention in Arizona and New York. And he got a WS MVP, so he was not flying under the radar.

I think of him as a Red Sox player first but probably biased in thinking of him as an Astro 2nd. The 2004 NLCS seemed like one of the most epic series ever if it weren't for the fact that the 2004 ALCS happened. And then the Cardinals ran into a buzzsaw in the WS.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Clemens’ NY bias boost is a legit gripe, but his numbers are not affected by a media bias. The fact that he may be an asshole is completely immaterial. If he did use PEDs, it was during a time where they were not illegal and most of the players in the game used them as well.

As has been mentioned, Randy was very much recognized as a beast while in Seattle. But he also got attention in Arizona and New York. And he got a WS MVP, so he was not flying under the radar.

how is the NY bias boost a legit gripe?? he had 7 CY, only one in NY... and NONE of his CY awards were not deserved...

I understand the steroids gripe... but that really is the only thing against him... I don't see how its possible if you ignore the steroid gripe for him not to be either the best SP or 2nd best...

now of course the steroid gripe is real and can ding him down...

 

[chappee11]

Clemens was my idol in HS and college...

I think Pedro was better...

Because he was!!

 

[chappee11]

Clemens’ NY bias boost is a legit gripe, but his numbers are not affected by a media bias. The fact that he may be an asshole is completely immaterial. If he did use PEDs, it was during a time where they were not illegal and most of the players in the game used them as well.

As has been mentioned, Randy was very much recognized as a beast while in Seattle. But he also got attention in Arizona and New York. And he got a WS MVP, so he was not flying under the radar.

“If he did use”??? That’s a debatable item now?

 

[Clayton]

“If he did use”??? That’s a debatable item now?

I think he is innocent.

Also, it's a real shame OJ never found the real killer.

 

[calsnowskier]

“If he did use”??? That’s a debatable item now?

I am a data guy. Therefore I live in a binary world. What I believe to be true is immaterial. He never failed a test. And even the accusations against him only say he used while PEDs were not illegal in the game.

Pettitte? Fuck him. He cheated. Cano? Fuck him. He cheated. Manny? Fuck him. He cheated.

Bonds? Alter boy. Clemens? Helped old ladies cross the street. Palmeiro? He is currently in the process of getting sainted.