To the LeBron haters

[tlance]

What exactly do you think this proves?

It doesn't matter how well Lebron played. The fact remains that if Allen doesn't hit that shot, the Heat lose the series.

You know what that proves?

How silly it is to make Finals record such an important determinant in individual greatness. The difference between a win and a loss can often be a shot by Ray Allen, Kyle Korver, Steve Kerr or John Paxson.

Whether or not those guys hit doesn't make MJ or LeBron any more or less great.

 

[trojanfan12]

What's with all of the strawman arguments and attempts to change the discussion by the Lebron fans.

It doesn't matter why Lebron is 3-5 in the finals, it matters that he is. There are no excuses, strawman arguments or claiming that this series or that series doesn't count that will change that fact.

No one is saying it's Lebron's fault that he's 3-5 in the finals. Just as no one is saying Magic and Kareems 4 finals losses each are their fault.

But guess what? Those losses still happened, they still count and they are still why they both lose the tiebreaker to MJ...just like Lebron.

 

[trojanfan12]

Not 100% true but I get your point

What's not true? If Ray misses that shot, the game and series are over and the Spurs win 4-2.

 

[trojanfan12]

How silly it is to make Finals record such an important determinant in individual greatness. The difference between a win and a loss can often be a shot by Ray Allen, Kyle Korver, Steve Kerr or John Paxson.

Not sure what part of "it's the tiebreaker" you're not grasping.

The numbers between the all-time great players are so close that a tie breaker is required. That tiebreaker is rings/finals record. That's not making "finals record such an important determinant."

It's acknowledging that these guys are so good and so close in their individual greatness, that it requires a tiebreaker.

That's all it is, a tiebreaker. I'm sorry that Lebron comes up short on that tiebreaker. He's got a lot of company.

 

[bksballer89]

What's not true? If Ray misses that shot, the game and series are over and the Spurs win 4-2.

Not exactly true. Ray attempted that shot with 7 seconds left and the Heat already grabbed 1 offensive rebound on that possession with Duncan sitting on the bench. Not set in stone that the Spurs would have grabbed the rebound had Ray missed.

 

[msgkings322]

What exactly do you think this proves?

It doesn't matter how well Lebron played. The fact remains that if Allen doesn't hit that shot, the Heat lose the series.

Yes but that fact is irrelevant to the question of how good a player LeBron was. How he played in that series is.

 

[trojanfan12]

Not exactly true. Ray attempted that shot with 7 seconds left and the Heat already grabbed 1 offensive rebound on that possession with Duncan sitting on the bench. Not set in stone that the Spurs would have grabbed the rebound had Ray missed.

I thought Rays shot was at the buzzer? I thought the Lebron miss happened and the ball was tipped to Ray who hit the 3 at the buzzer.

If it wasn't, then you're right. No guarantee that the Spurs get the rebound.

 

[bksballer89]

I thought Rays shot was at the buzzer? I thought the Lebron miss happened, the ball was tipped to Ray who hit the 3 at the buzzer.

If it wasn't, then you're right. No guarantee that the Spurs get the rebound.

Nope. He took the shot at about 7 seconds. Spurs had the ball with 5 seconds and no timeouts then Parker missed the possible series winner which led to the OT period.

 

[tlance]

Not sure what part of "it's the tiebreaker" you're not grasping.

The numbers between the all-time great players are so close that a tie breaker is required. That tiebreaker is rings/finals record. That's not making "finals record such an important determinant."

It's acknowledging that these guys are so good and so close in their individual greatness, that it requires a tiebreaker.

That's all it is, a tiebreaker. I'm sorry that Lebron comes up short on that tiebreaker. He's got a lot of company.

You are saying it is a tiebreaker.

I don't necessarily believe in ties, but I completely understand that viewpoint.

There are others on here who are saying he is between 8-14 BECAUSE of his "losing Finals record". That is more the view I am railing against because it is made with ridiculously flawed logic.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yes but that fact is irrelevant to the question of how good a player LeBron was. How he played in that series is.

See, this is more of that trying to change the discussion you Lebron fans are trying to do.

We all know Lebron is an all-time great player. No one is disputing that Lebron is an all-time great player. It's literally the reason he's even in the discussion. He played great in the series. Well, guess what? That's something else he has in common with the other all time greats. They played great in theirs too.

It's about the finals record which is the tiebreaker that separates the all-time greats and that is used to rank them. Lebron comes up short on that tiebreaker. Which is why most have him ranked somewhere in the 3rd thru 5th range all time.

 

[trojanfan12]

There are others on here who are saying he is between 8-14 BECAUSE of his "losing Finals record". That is more the view I am railing against because it is made with ridiculously flawed logic.

I think they are more or less using it as a tiebreaker as well, they just include more players (like Kobe, Shaq, Timmy) in the discussion which means more all time greats that Lebron loses the tiebreaker to.

For me, I think Lebron is better by a wide enough margin over everyone not named MJ, Kareem or Magic that a tiebreaker isn't necessary. But, not everyone agrees on that.

 

[Black Adam]

See, this is more of that trying to change the discussion you Lebron fans are trying to do.

We all know Lebron is an all-time great player. No one is disputing that Lebron is an all-time great player. It's literally the reason he's even in the discussion. He played great in the series. Well, guess what? That's something else he has in common with the other all time greats. They played great in theirs too.

It's about the finals record which is the tiebreaker that separates the all-time greats and that is used to rank them. Lebron comes up short on that tiebreaker. Which is why most have him ranked somewhere in the 3rd thru 5th range all time.

oy, call him the best, or this argument's gonna continue...

 

[trojanfan12]

Nope. He took the shot at about 7 seconds. Spurs had the ball with 5 seconds and no timeouts then Parker missed the possible series winner which led to the OT period.

Lol. Damn, I was way off.

 

[Black Adam]

so to the OP, who started this thread December 30th, the answer's STILL yes...

 

[flyerhawk]

What's with all of the strawman arguments and attempts to change the discussion by the Lebron fans.

It doesn't matter why Lebron is 3-5 in the finals, it matters that he is. There are no excuses, strawman arguments or claiming that this series or that series doesn't count that will change that fact.

No one is saying it's Lebron's fault that he's 3-5 in the finals. Just as no one is saying Magic and Kareems 4 finals losses each are their fault.

But guess what? Those losses still happened, they still count and they are still why they both lose the tiebreaker to MJ...just like Lebron.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone saying that MJ is the GOAT. I am willing to entertain arguments that KAJ or Magic are the GOAT. I also think Lebron is in that conversation.

Great teams require more than one great player. So I personally don't believe that championships define individual greatness. I'm fine with others thinking that but I don't. Not in basketball and certainly not in any other team sport.

 

[msgkings322]

You are saying it is a tiebreaker.

I don't necessarily believe in ties, but I completely understand that viewpoint.

There are others on here who are saying he is between 8-14 BECAUSE of his "losing Finals record". That is more the view I am railing against because it is made with ridiculously flawed logic.

To be fair that's pretty much one idiot (rhymes with Bore-ian D'oh) making that 'argument'

 

[tlance]

To be fair that's pretty much one idiot (rhymes with Bore-ian D'oh) making that 'argument'

Shaqdaddy too

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Shaqdaddy too

Really? So where do I have lebron all time then if you want to make that assumption?

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

You are saying it is a tiebreaker.

I don't necessarily believe in ties, but I completely understand that viewpoint.

There are others on here who are saying he is between 8-14 BECAUSE of his "losing Finals record". That is more the view I am railing against because it is made with ridiculously flawed logic.

Once again, if someone doesn't agree with your opinion, they're completely wrong, right?

Fuck me, you must be a republican!

 

[handicappers]

Robert Horry is the GOAT