The Sword Has Two Sharp Edges

[cdumler7]

The question to me though with what type of WR they need to be looking for is can they truly keep going in the same system they have without Brady? I was listening to someone talk about how the Patriots can attack the weakness of a defense and change up what they do week to week mostly because of Brady having complete control of the offense. That is rare to have a QB that probably could write the entire playbook from memory in one sitting.

I do think the Patriots are going to have to change how they view their offense moving forward especially without Brady.

As for the argument of strengthening the OL I guess I would argue against that some. The Chiefs and 49ers did not have a good OL. They had a good enough OL. The top OL's in football were not playoff teams other than maybe 1 or 2 of them. With today's quick strike offense and moving a QB around it becomes more about playmakers than OL. Now if they keep Brady I guess you could have an argument to a point but there were a lot of plays this past year where the blocking held up but no one was getting open.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Patten could fly.

“Patten impressed the New York Giants after running a 4.27 in the 40-yard dash at a University of South Carolina NFL workout in March 1997“

*UPDATE*Great Read On David Patten

Not saying that wasn't a favorable home gun but the fastest combine guys usually are right around 4.3. Since Patten was undrafted we'll never know. Just like Bo Jacksons debatable 4.13. Regardless there is fast in shorts and then there is football fast. Just like there is fast and there is quick. I'd prefer quick and football fast. Just another really nice undrafted player who did well. Would've liked to have seen him hold onto a few more balls but that's part of the reason he went undrafted I think?

 

[NWPATSFAN]

The question to me though with what type of WR they need to be looking for is can they truly keep going in the same system they have without Brady? I was listening to someone talk about how the Patriots can attack the weakness of a defense and change up what they do week to week mostly because of Brady having complete control of the offense. That is rare to have a QB that probably could write the entire playbook from memory in one sitting.

I do think the Patriots are going to have to change how they view their offense moving forward especially without Brady.

As for the argument of strengthening the OL I guess I would argue against that some. The Chiefs and 49ers did not have a good OL. They had a good enough OL. The top OL's in football were not playoff teams other than maybe 1 or 2 of them. With today's quick strike offense and moving a QB around it becomes more about playmakers than OL. Now if they keep Brady I guess you could have an argument to a point but there were a lot of plays this past year where the blocking held up but no one was getting open.

Well your question would go a long way an answering the argument about is it the system or is it Brady?

Brady like Manning both could dissect a defense pre snap which greatly enhanced their abilities to find the open guy.

Brady is a statue, he needs time in the pocket which is why he unlike many other QBs needs a good Oline. One that can pass protect but also run block effectively to set up the pass.

 

[cdumler7]

Well your question would go a long way an answering the argument about is it the system or is it Brady?

Brady like Manning both could dissect a defense pre snap which greatly enhanced their abilities to find the open guy.

Brady is a statue, he needs time in the pocket which is why he unlike many other QBs needs a good Oline. One that can pass protect but also run block effectively to set up the pass.

Well like Manning Brady became the system. It is why I hated when Kubiak came in and wanted Manning to try and adapt some of his system into it and they tried to mesh the two very unsuccessfully. It is why I question some who are talking about Brady to the Raiders because can you really see Gruden giving up control of the offense? I don't see those two meshing well.

As for the Patriots the big question even if you bring back Brady is then you are probably sacrificing some in the long-term to give Brady a chance at a championship now. Nothing wrong with that as you go for it when you have the opportunity. Just means then the next QB coming in might not be set up for success in the long run.

I personally would make the choice to move on from Brady at this point. I think he is still an above average starter but I have a hard time seeing them surround him with enough talent to beat teams like the Ravens or Chiefs to win a Championship at this time. The torch has been passed and the longer the Patriots delay figuring that out the longer then the rebuild will take. Believe me I understand better than most watching the Broncos try to mesh rebuilding while also competing for championships at the same time. Part of the delay was missing on Paxton Lynch but there were other areas they could have made decisions on vets that they held onto too long.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Well like Manning Brady became the system. It is why I hated when Kubiak came in and wanted Manning to try and adapt some of his system into it and they tried to mesh the two very unsuccessfully. It is why I question some who are talking about Brady to the Raiders because can you really see Gruden giving up control of the offense? I don't see those two meshing well.

As for the Patriots the big question even if you bring back Brady is then you are probably sacrificing some in the long-term to give Brady a chance at a championship now. Nothing wrong with that as you go for it when you have the opportunity. Just means then the next QB coming in might not be set up for success in the long run.

I personally would make the choice to move on from Brady at this point. I think he is still an above average starter but I have a hard time seeing them surround him with enough talent to beat teams like the Ravens or Chiefs to win a Championship at this time. The torch has been passed and the longer the Patriots delay figuring that out the longer then the rebuild will take. Believe me I understand better than most watching the Broncos try to mesh rebuilding while also competing for championships at the same time. Part of the delay was missing on Paxton Lynch but there were other areas they could have made decisions on vets that they held onto too long.

I'm certainly a believer a team drafts or gets a QB that fits a system. Funny how they get tagged as a system QB after that.

I'm not sure if NE is sacrificing anything long term? Is Stidham the answer? Who knows? We didn't think Brady was the answer until Bledsoe went down. Stidham is on a rookie deal so that helps with NE's cap space. I'm not against keeping Brady for two more years. He's deserved that IMO. As long as he doesn't cripple the franchise for years to come with a crazy $ grab.

There aren't many FAs (that are above average) that I would take over him now. NE can always draft another rookie and see where that leads or wait it out and see who's available next year or the year after if Brady does sign for two years.

There is enough talent there with a tweak or two. I think BB by not naming a DC last year really focused his attention on the D and it showed for the most part. The D is solid, STs are solid the biggest weakness to me is TE and Oline. Both can be fixed in he offseason through the draft and FA. Who knows maybe a lighter H back style Gronk comes back? Add Danny Amendola and who knows?

My biggest thing has been trying to figure out why Brady just couldn't connect with Meyers and N'Keal? Meyers especially seemed to be catching everything? Also surprised Sanu didn't do more? With Sanu I really think he didn't really get the playbook. Edelman and Dorsett it's really not a bad line up of WRs.

I really think a quality TE is where they need to focus. That has seemed to have been the blueprint since they drafted AH and Gronk. Look at the other successful teams as of late with guys like Kittle or Kelce...

 

[cdumler7]

I'm certainly a believer a team drafts or gets a QB that fits a system. Funny how they get tagged as a system QB after that.

I'm not sure if NE is sacrificing anything long term? Is Stidham the answer? Who knows? We didn't think Brady was the answer until Bledsoe went down. Stidham is on a rookie deal so that helps with NE's cap space. I'm not against keeping Brady for two more years. He's deserved that IMO. As long as he doesn't cripple the franchise for years to come with a crazy $ grab.

There aren't many FAs (that are above average) that I would take over him now. NE can always draft another rookie and see where that leads or wait it out and see who's available next year or the year after if Brady does sign for two years.

There is enough talent there with a tweak or two. I think BB by not naming a DC last year really focused his attention on the D and it showed for the most part. The D is solid, STs are solid the biggest weakness to me is TE and Oline. Both can be fixed in he offseason through the draft and FA. Who knows maybe a lighter H back style Gronk comes back? Add Danny Amendola and who knows?

My biggest thing has been trying to figure out why Brady just couldn't connect with Meyers and N'Keal? Meyers especially seemed to be catching everything? Also surprised Sanu didn't do more? With Sanu I really think he didn't really get the playbook. Edelman and Dorsett it's really not a bad line up of WRs.

I really think a quality TE is where they need to focus. That has seemed to have been the blueprint since they drafted AH and Gronk. Look at the other successful teams as of late with guys like Kittle or Kelce...

Couple of things...

1) This is not the year to need a TE. There are a couple of ok ones hitting the open market in FA but the draft is a bunch of JAGS in my opinion. They can be ok productive but to me they are a lot more #2 TE's than true #1's. I just have a hard time believing you are finding the next Kittle or Kelce but hey we will see.

2) Again to me I'm not wanting to bring back Brady. He has earned it for sure but I just don't know if the Patriots have the firepower to keep up with the Ravens and Chiefs of the NFL these days and at that point it is probably time to start the rebuild and hope in a couple of years when those teams are having to pay their QB's that maybe there will be another window with a young QB on a rookie deal.

 

[YankeeRebel]

I think people are missing my point, on purpose perhaps? Some speed at WR serves two purposes making the safety commit which can open up other possibilities on the field. And if Brady is the QB he can still a]launch one as needed or when needed.

 

[BigKen]

The argument, to me, seems to be this.....Would you rather be punched in the face by a bare-knuckled Sonny Liston or kicked in the face by a barefooted Bruce Lee? Either one is going to leave your face a mess and very painful.

Keeping Brady will hurt financially and letting him go could hurt equally as much in overall team performance.

The other questions that could be equally agonizing are :

Do you pay to keep Devon McCourty?
Do you Pay to keep Joe Thuney?
Do you pay to keep Jamie Collins?
Do you pay to keep Karl Van Noy?

This might be the right time to move on from aging players and suffer the consequences for a couple of years while the team reloads and gets younger. Age in the NFL can kill as much as speed and youth.

 

[Southieinnc]

Well your question would go a long way an answering the argument about is it the system or is it Brady?

Brady like Manning both could dissect a defense pre snap which greatly enhanced their abilities to find the open guy.

Brady is a statue, he needs time in the pocket which is why he unlike many other QBs needs a good Oline. One that can pass protect but also run block effectively to set up the pass.

I totally disagree. Brady made a living dumping the ball of in 1.3. He takes longer when he has longer.
Lack of separation is the bigget problem. The cause is another story.
Am I the only one that thinks Josh is partly to blame?
Get separation and Brady will throw 500 yards per game - even at this age.
Should Josh not call plays that the receivers can actually run?
Or should we continue to throw balls over Dorsetts head and bounce balls to our 6'2+ receivers?????

 

[Yankee Traveler]

At the time, I thought keeping Dorsett over Patterson was the smart thing to do.
Now I wish we had a playmaker like Patterson.
I still believe that Josh is not sing Dorsett properly but we may not know until Dorsett or Josh go to another team.

I'm right there with you. But as the only speedster on the field, it is easy for the safety to double team him when he took off.

 

[BigKen]

Or should we continue to throw balls over Dorsetts head and bounce balls to our 6'2+ receivers?????

I hate to say it, but that's on Tom. I coached QBs for 44 years release determines the flightangle of the ball. Release the ball at the back of the shoulder and the angle is upward. Release the ball after verticle and it's a pitch and heads straight to the ground. I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours and at least 25,000 passes coaching my grandson how to correctly release a football. Go back and watch the Philly game where the Pats lost the Super Bowl and the Atlanta games. Brady had 1100 yards passing and I don't think he threw a pass higher than 15 feet off the ground. I've taught every kid who played for me to never throw the ball high enough for everyone to see it. Receivers have to fight for it and usually there are two or three defenders with that WR. I call those passes, Marshmallows. Low throws are generally released beyond the level point of extension. Like a pitcher from a baseball mound.

 

[Yankee Traveler]

Hmmmmm, agree with some of this like yes TB 12 and the Pats do well with precise/shifty short guys. That's why I mentioned the new focus of NE signing all these guys 6' + now.

But not sure I'd say they had better than average speed.

Branch loved him as a player 5'-9" ran a 4.47
Givens 6' ran a 4.57
Patten averaged just over 3 catches a game.
Amendola 5'10" and another 4.58 guy


Which further bolsters my point NE doesn't need a burner type WR especially if it's an expensive FA or an early draft pick.

Stay with the short quick guys. Blow your wad on an Olineman or a TE or both. One through FA and one or two from the draft.

Go Pats

Oline and full backs to blow holes for a decent RB and it keeps the pass defense honest.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Couple of things...

1) This is not the year to need a TE. There are a couple of ok ones hitting the open market in FA but the draft is a bunch of JAGS in my opinion. They can be ok productive but to me they are a lot more #2 TE's than true #1's. I just have a hard time believing you are finding the next Kittle or Kelce but hey we will see.

2) Again to me I'm not wanting to bring back Brady. He has earned it for sure but I just don't know if the Patriots have the firepower to keep up with the Ravens and Chiefs of the NFL these days and at that point it is probably time to start the rebuild and hope in a couple of years when those teams are having to pay their QB's that maybe there will be another window with a young QB on a rookie deal.

1. Totally agree it is a bad year to find a TE. As I said I wouldn't mind NE going after one of the top TEs available: Olsen, Hooper, Henry or even the Eiferts, Fells or Clay? any would be better than what NE had this past season. Getting a FA TE would allow them to fix the Oline with their first pick. Which becomes a bigger issue now that Scar retired (again).

2. I'd still take Brady over a rookie or even some mid level guy. It doesn't build for the future but most teams don't have that luxury. Again not sure what Stidham may bring? Could also take a late flyer? Brady was pick #199 so you never know? Let's not forget NE did go 12-4.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

I totally disagree. Brady made a living dumping the ball of in 1.3. He takes longer when he has longer.
Lack of separation is the bigget problem. The cause is another story.
Am I the only one that thinks Josh is partly to blame?
Get separation and Brady will throw 500 yards per game - even at this age.
Should Josh not call plays that the receivers can actually run?
Or should we continue to throw balls over Dorsetts head and bounce balls to our 6'2+ receivers?????

My point on Brady being a statue was in response to cd comparing a highly mobile QB and a Garappalo who can scramble much better than Brady.

The other argument on this thread was speed. Just because a guy is fast doesn't mean he can separate or hold onto the ball. Look at the Raiders (Al Davis) era for proof. Draft the fastest guy in the draft year after year. How'd that work out?

Yes Josh needs to take a lot of the blame. He also should get some credit.

What do you see as the real problem as to why Brady was bouncing passes regularly or overthrowing guys on a consistent basis?

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

Couple of things...

1) This is not the year to need a TE. There are a couple of ok ones hitting the open market in FA but the draft is a bunch of JAGS in my opinion. They can be ok productive but to me they are a lot more #2 TE's than true #1's. I just have a hard time believing you are finding the next Kittle or Kelce but hey we will see.

Yep we will see...Kelce was a 3rd rounder (5th TE taken) and Kittle was a 5th rounder (9th TE) so nobody was touting those guys as game changers at the time they came out, either.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

To be clear on the speed thing...I’m in no way advocating to just stick any dude who happens to be fast out there just because he’s fast. Obviously it has to be someone that can actually take advantage of the mismatches the speed would create. Slater’s fast af. That doesn’t mean I think we should re-sign him and send him on 30 fly patterns a game.

Having a RB that can get to the edge once in awhile would be nice, too.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Oline and full backs to blow holes for a decent RB and it keeps the pass defense honest.

Develin is hopefully back?

 

[NWPATSFAN]

To be clear on the speed thing...I’m in no way advocating to just stick any dude who happens to be fast out there just because he’s fast. Obviously it has to be someone that can actually take advantage of the mismatches the speed would create. Slater’s fast af. That doesn’t mean I think we should re-sign him and send him on 30 fly patterns a game.

Having a RB that can get to the edge once in awhile would be nice, too.

Wouldn't that be nice?

 

[BigKen]

Some really good arguments and some interesting thought-provoking statements.

2019 proved that a less than adequate OL, no quality TE and less than adequate WRs spelled doom for the Patriots against the better teams in the NFL. Notice was posted in the first half of the season that problems laid ahead if the Patriots didn't make some changes by game #9 against the Ravens. Belichick didn't make any moves before the trade deadline and was subbing at least 1 OL every week. He knew that Brady did not have a relief valve without Gronk or any other TE. It was a recipe for disaster by the time the playoffs got here.

Play calling in the playoffs was abysmal. From Sept.9, McDaniels knew that Sony Michele did not have the speed to get outside. Every linebacker was able to run him down from behind. On several occasions when he broke through inside, he never made it to the end zone because he lacks an afterburner gear. The other problem is that Michele doesn't have the leg power to get and extra yard or two after contact. Rex Burkhead was much better getting needed yardage than Michele and if you remember Sony was on the sideline in critical games late.

Again, the sword swinging both ways. Belichick will most likely have Michele right back as the starter with Burkhead and Harris on the sides. Harris, the few times he ran the ball showed much better power and always seemed to get yards after contact.

No matter what, Brady or no, McDaniels will have to alter the offense to take advantage of the players available. If he doesn't, this team will suffer immeasurably. Belichick has to open his eyes and get better offensive linemen because he will no longer have Dante in the background to get players to play better than even they thought they could play.

The 2020 draft critical. Belichick has to check his ego at the door and draft for "NEED" and not for some future idea. The future starts now.

 

[Yankee Traveler]

1) Belichick didn't make any moves before the trade deadline
2) McDaniels knew that Sony Michele did not have the speed to get outside.
3) Harris, the few times he ran the ball showed much better power and always seemed to get yards after contact.

1) Bill did attempt to add AB first and then trade for Sanu second, so it's not like he did "nothing".
2) Yeah, that Camaro has got bent rims.
3) Skippy and Bill need to give him some game time. Seriously.