The Official 5,000 Posts for a Flyers Stanley Cup in 2015!

[Cobiemonster]

I have many things to say on the JVR matter but I will refrain except for saying JVR watched the playoffs from home while Schenn was our best playoff defenseman.

And it wasn't JVR's fault that his team missed the playoffs, either

 

[Cobiemonster]

Flyers new locker room victory song!

 

[awaz]

big win on Saturday. tough week ahead with the Hawks, Pens, and Wings. Let's get it rollin boys!

 

[Cobiemonster]

big win on Saturday. tough week ahead with the Hawks, Pens, and Wings. Let's get it rollin boys!

I think the Flyers can win two out of three this week, now that they got the first win out of the way - let's get this going

 

[lasgop8]

And it wasn't JVR's fault that his team missed the playoffs, either

It was the teams fault and I believe JVR was part of the team watching Luke Schenn play great playoff hockey

 

[awaz]

I've said this a lot, but the JvR for Schenn deal was a good deal by the Flyers at the time. It was an under-producing, high potential forward, for an under-producing, high potential d-man. An even trade that met a Flyer-need. It's not Homer's fault JvR has taken more steps towards his potential than Luke Schenn has. That doesn't make it a 'bad trade' it makes it a trade that didn't work out how we all hoped it would.

 

[chy1127]

And it wasn't JVR's fault that his team missed the playoffs, either

I think it was entirely his fault!

 

[lasgop8]

I've said this a lot, but the JvR for Schenn deal was a good deal by the Flyers at the time. It was an under-producing, high potential forward, for an under-producing, high potential d-man. An even trade that met a Flyer-need. It's not Homer's fault JvR has taken more steps towards his potential than Luke Schenn has. That doesn't make it a 'bad trade' it makes it a trade that didn't work out how we all hoped it would.

It worked out exactly how we hoped. Us in the playoffs and the Leafs watching.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I've said this a lot, but the JvR for Schenn deal was a good deal by the Flyers at the time. It was an under-producing, high potential forward, for an under-producing, high potential d-man. An even trade that met a Flyer-need. It's not Homer's fault JvR has taken more steps towards his potential than Luke Schenn has. That doesn't make it a 'bad trade' it makes it a trade that didn't work out how we all hoped it would.

Also, it was a trade where the Flyers traded for a need because they screwed up in the past with multiple deals where they caused that position to be a need - if you don't make bad moves from the start then you don't have to trade guys with high potential just to get a guy because you need defensemen

 

[awaz]

Also, it was a trade where the Flyers traded for a need because they screwed up in the past with multiple deals where they caused that position to be a need - if you don't make bad moves from the start then you don't have to trade guys with high potential just to get a guy because you need defensemen

Well ya, they've been botching 'how to build a defense' for 15 years. Then you end up in that situation, i'll give you that.

The crazy thing is, people are talking about trading for guys like Sekera, and Bogosian, and basically trading Grossmann and Schenn to anyone who will take them, for whatever they'll give up for them. That's essentially doing what the Flyers have been doing for 15 years, which we've already covered is the wrong way to go about it.

Live with a mediocre (aka bad) defense for a couple years, let the young guys develop. Don't get rid of assets to get rid of the guys who are providing a stop gap until the young guys are ready. And don't take on guys that either have long term deals (Bogosian) or will get long term deals if you want to retain them (Sekera).

Not saying posters here are suggesting that, I've just read a lot of that on other sites. Homer gets/got blasted for doing exactly what everyone is proposing Hextall do. It's crazy to me.

 

[chy1127]

Well ya, they've been botching 'how to build a defense' for 15 years. Then you end up in that situation, i'll give you that.

The crazy thing is, people are talking about trading for guys like Sekera, and Bogosian, and basically trading Grossmann and Schenn to anyone who will take them, for whatever they'll give up for them. That's essentially doing what the Flyers have been doing for 15 years, which we've already covered is the wrong way to go about it.
Live with a mediocre (aka bad) defense for a couple years, let the young guys develop. Don't get rid of assets to get rid of the guys who are providing a stop gap until the young guys are ready. And don't take on guys that either have long term deals (Bogosian) or will get long term deals if you want to retain them (Sekera).

Not saying posters here are suggesting that, I've just read a lot of that on other sites. Homer gets/got blasted for doing exactly what everyone is proposing Hextall do. It's crazy to me.

I don't consider these guys to be part of the mold that caused the problem. For years, young players were traded for over-priced older players. Grossmann is a slow 29 year old that has some use when used under the right circumstances. He has $3.5 cap hit for this year and next. He is an OK 2nd pairing dman that would be a very good 3rd pairing guy as well as used on the PK. Schenn is younger but is also a 3rd pairing guy making $3.6 for this year and next. They are being paid 2nd pairing money and playing like 3rd pairing guys.These are the type guys Homer would bring in for either a 2nd round pick or a young prospect. I have no problem if Hexy moves one or both to open cap space and giving a younger guy a shot. This, if ever, will not happen until the trade deadline.

The goalies have faced 147 shots in 5 games. Too many of these have been high quality shots where the goalie hasn't had a real chance. Something has to change on the back end and these 2 are the best options as we need to keep Streit and Coburn is a number 2-3 player. No one in their right mind would trade for A Mac. and MDZ and Schultz are lower end guys being paid lower end scale. Having either Schenn or Grossmann would be OK but having both isn't cutting it.

 

[awaz]

I don't consider these guys to be part of the mold that caused the problem. For years, young players were traded for over-priced older players. Grossmann is a slow 29 year old that has some use when used under the right circumstances. He has $3.5 cap hit for this year and next. He is an OK 2nd pairing dman that would be a very good 3rd pairing guy as well as used on the PK. Schenn is younger but is also a 3rd pairing guy making $3.6 for this year and next. They are being paid 2nd pairing money and playing like 3rd pairing guys.These are the type guys Homer would bring in for either a 2nd round pick or a young prospect. I have no problem if Hexy moves one or both to open cap space and giving a younger guy a shot. This, if ever, will not happen until the trade deadline.

The goalies have faced 147 shots in 5 games. Too many of these have been high quality shots where the goalie hasn't had a real chance. Something has to change on the back end and these 2 are the best options as we need to keep Streit and Coburn is a number 2-3 player. No one in their right mind would trade for A Mac. and MDZ and Schultz are lower end guys being paid lower end scale. Having either Schenn or Grossmann would be OK but having both isn't cutting it.

Opening up cap space is a viable reason, but I don't think you should do it at the expense of your prospects. If you move Schenn and Grossmann, you have Schultz in your top 6 for the year, and one of Manning, Alt, Ghost, or Hagg. Or 2 of them if you keep Schultz in a 7th dman role. Manning has been up and down between the AHL and NHL, and hasn't proven he can hold down a regular NHL role. The AHL stuff I've read on Ghost says, even in the AHL, he needs a lot of work defensively (granted, it's through 2 games). So you're down to Alt, Hagg, and Schultz as your 5, 6, 7 dmen. I don't see that as an improvement on defense.

The level of improvement the Flyers need on defense has to come internally, and it has to come when it's ready. Give Sanhiem, Morin, Hagg, Ghost, and Alt the time they need to develop. Let them learn from coaches at the junior and AHL level. Terry Murray is one of the best defensive coaches in the world, use him! Don't trade away guys that can fill bottom pair roles just to rush the prospects.

The Flyers are two skills competitions away from being 3-2 against 4 of the better teams in the league with this atrocious defense. Not to mention they've been down their best dman for the majority of those games. IMO, they are competitive enough right now to be entertaining to watch, while we wait for the rebuild on defense. Keep Schenn, keep Grossmann, and keep the kids developing.

 

[lasgop8]

Opening up cap space is a viable reason, but I don't think you should do it at the expense of your prospects. If you move Schenn and Grossmann, you have Schultz in your top 6 for the year, and one of Manning, Alt, Ghost, or Hagg. Or 2 of them if you keep Schultz in a 7th dman role. Manning has been up and down between the AHL and NHL, and hasn't proven he can hold down a regular NHL role. The AHL stuff I've read on Ghost says, even in the AHL, he needs a lot of work defensively (granted, it's through 2 games). So you're down to Alt, Hagg, and Schultz as your 5, 6, 7 dmen. I don't see that as an improvement on defense.

The level of improvement the Flyers need on defense has to come internally, and it has to come when it's ready. Give Sanhiem, Morin, Hagg, Ghost, and Alt the time they need to develop. Let them learn from coaches at the junior and AHL level. Terry Murray is one of the best defensive coaches in the world, use him! Don't trade away guys that can fill bottom pair roles just to rush the prospects.

The Flyers are two skills competitions away from being 3-2 against 4 of the better teams in the league with this atrocious defense. Not to mention they've been down their best dman for the majority of those games. IMO, they are competitive enough right now to be entertaining to watch, while we wait for the rebuild on defense. Keep Schenn, keep Grossmann, and keep the kids developing.

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[chy1127]

Opening up cap space is a viable reason, but I don't think you should do it at the expense of your prospects. If you move Schenn and Grossmann, you have Schultz in your top 6 for the year, and one of Manning, Alt, Ghost, or Hagg. Or 2 of them if you keep Schultz in a 7th dman role. Manning has been up and down between the AHL and NHL, and hasn't proven he can hold down a regular NHL role. The AHL stuff I've read on Ghost says, even in the AHL, he needs a lot of work defensively (granted, it's through 2 games). So you're down to Alt, Hagg, and Schultz as your 5, 6, 7 dmen. I don't see that as an improvement on defense.

The level of improvement the Flyers need on defense has to come internally, and it has to come when it's ready. Give Sanhiem, Morin, Hagg, Ghost, and Alt the time they need to develop. Let them learn from coaches at the junior and AHL level. Terry Murray is one of the best defensive coaches in the world, use him! Don't trade away guys that can fill bottom pair roles just to rush the prospects.

The Flyers are two skills competitions away from being 3-2 against 4 of the better teams in the league with this atrocious defense. Not to mention they've been down their best dman for the majority of those games. IMO, they are competitive enough right now to be entertaining to watch, while we wait for the rebuild on defense. Keep Schenn, keep Grossmann, and keep the kids developing.

My point would be to move 1 or the other. I agree that moving both would create a problem. Having both is the problem. They are really #5-6 dmen making $3.5. For that price you need to be a solid 2nd pairing guy. Both are playing too many minutes which makes them ineffective. I will never blame the player for this. When Coburn comes back someone needs to sit.

Top 3 dmen at that point are Streit, Coburn and A Mac (an issue w/o a solution)
Bottom 4 Grossmann, L. Schenn, MDZ and Schultz.

I understand that we don't want to rush prospects but between Manning, Alt, Lauridson, Ghost and Hagg, one of them should be able to fit into the 3rd pairing at a much reduced price. Something has to change and as I see it, the options are either Grossmann or L. Schenn. Grossmann is the better player but they are basically the same player at the same cap hit. Having 2 slow stay at home types will not cut it these days.

I am not advocating a trade just to make a trade but something has to change on defense and as it is that cannot happen. We are not good enough and cannot improve with the current line-up.
I could live with Schultz as my #6 if Grossmann or L. Schenn were moved. Both will have value at the trade deadline. Yes, its early in the season, but how many #5-6 type players are needed? We have at least 4. Manning can be a number 6. We cant have one of the young guys sit as a #7. That is a position Schultz can handle and the price is right.

 

[awaz]

My point would be to move 1 or the other. I agree that moving both would create a problem. Having both is the problem. They are really #5-6 dmen making $3.5. For that price you need to be a solid 2nd pairing guy. Both are playing too many minutes which makes them ineffective. I will never blame the player for this. When Coburn comes back someone needs to sit.

Top 3 dmen at that point are Streit, Coburn and A Mac (an issue w/o a solution)
Bottom 4 Grossmann, L. Schenn, MDZ and Schultz.

I understand that we don't want to rush prospects but between Manning, Alt, Lauridson, Ghost and Hagg, one of them should be able to fit into the 3rd pairing at a much reduced price. Something has to change and as I see it, the options are either Grossmann or L. Schenn. Grossmann is the better player but they are basically the same player at the same cap hit. Having 2 slow stay at home types will not cut it these days.

I am not advocating a trade just to make a trade but something has to change on defense and as it is that cannot happen. We are not good enough and cannot improve with the current line-up.
I could live with Schultz as my #6 if Grossmann or L. Schenn were moved. Both will have value at the trade deadline. Yes, its early in the season, but how many #5-6 type players are needed? We have at least 4. Manning can be a number 6. We cant have one of the young guys sit as a #7. That is a position Schultz can handle and the price is right.

Pending the Flyers situation at the trade deadline, I would be open to moving LSchenn or Grossmann for future assets, ie draft picks. Like you said, to clear the cap space. I wouldn't be super aggressive in using that cap space this offseason or via trade though. It would simply be a 'clear the contract' type move if I were in charge.

My only real concern, and what I'm trying to convey, is that the Flyers problems are bigger than some cap space here and a trade there. They won't be a cup contender again until they build from within, and get some difference makers on ELC's on the big team. Then they will have cap space to make a 'get us over the top' move at the TDL or in free agency. Til then, I don't want the Flyers trying to improve via free agency or trade. You just can't build a competitive team through that. It's just too expensive, both future asset wise, and cap space wise.

I'm willing to watch the team muddle in mediocrity, or even get a little worse, ie trading Grossmann, as long as they don't trade future assets or tie up future money on modest improvements. Then, in 2-3 years when the kids are ready, they can start making a run again.

 

[chy1127]

I will start this rant with the following observation. It is very easy to complain and it is difficult to find a solution. We can say "trade L. Schenn" but who would want him and what would we get in return? That being said, this is our projected pairings for tonight's game against the Blackhawks. Our top pairing would not scare the Panthers at this point (and they are averaging a robust 1.00 goals per game). Our 2nd pair isn't all that bad and the 3rd really isn't that bad either.

47 Andrew MacDonald - 5 Braydon Coburn
8 Nicklas Grossmann - 32 Mark Streit
15 Michael Del Zotto - 22 Luke Schenn


Unfortunately there is no solution and this is what we are going to live and die by. Hopefully we will be on the good end of those 6-5 games. That is almost $24 million for those 6. The good news is that the top 5 earners are all under contact for at least 1 more year and MDZ is a RFA. This is unbefuckingleavable! At this point I would be happy with mediocre. B. Schenn and/or Vinny better not be moved as we will need every goal we can get.

I am breaking my own rule by complaining without a solution but its in Hexy's hands.

 

[4thstreet]

Opening up cap space is a viable reason, but I don't think you should do it at the expense of your prospects. If you move Schenn and Grossmann, you have Schultz in your top 6 for the year, and one of Manning, Alt, Ghost, or Hagg. Or 2 of them if you keep Schultz in a 7th dman role. Manning has been up and down between the AHL and NHL, and hasn't proven he can hold down a regular NHL role. The AHL stuff I've read on Ghost says, even in the AHL, he needs a lot of work defensively (granted, it's through 2 games). So you're down to Alt, Hagg, and Schultz as your 5, 6, 7 dmen. I don't see that as an improvement on defense.

The level of improvement the Flyers need on defense has to come internally, and it has to come when it's ready. Give Sanhiem, Morin, Hagg, Ghost, and Alt the time they need to develop. Let them learn from coaches at the junior and AHL level. Terry Murray is one of the best defensive coaches in the world, use him! Don't trade away guys that can fill bottom pair roles just to rush the prospects.

The Flyers are two skills competitions away from being 3-2 against 4 of the better teams in the league with this atrocious defense. Not to mention they've been down their best dman for the majority of those games. IMO, they are competitive enough right now to be entertaining to watch, while we wait for the rebuild on defense. Keep Schenn, keep Grossmann, and keep the kids developing.

Been like this for over 40 years for me,and the reasons-goaltending and defence,have never changed..

Trading away prospects,draft picks,etc.for quick fixes has traditionally never worked in the past,so why do it again.Let the young guys develop.

 

[chy1127]

Pending the Flyers situation at the trade deadline, I would be open to moving LSchenn or Grossmann for future assets, ie draft picks. Like you said, to clear the cap space. I wouldn't be super aggressive in using that cap space this offseason or via trade though. It would simply be a 'clear the contract' type move if I were in charge.

My only real concern, and what I'm trying to convey, is that the Flyers problems are bigger than some cap space here and a trade there. They won't be a cup contender again until they build from within, and get some difference makers on ELC's on the big team. Then they will have cap space to make a 'get us over the top' move at the TDL or in free agency. Til then, I don't want the Flyers trying to improve via free agency or trade. You just can't build a competitive team through that. It's just too expensive, both future asset wise, and cap space wise.

I'm willing to watch the team muddle in mediocrity, or even get a little worse, ie trading Grossmann, as long as they don't trade future assets or tie up future money on modest improvements. Then, in 2-3 years when the kids are ready, they can start making a run again.

It nice that we finally have some prospects to look forward to. Since 2011 we starting drafting players that you can actually look forward to seeing. Couts, Laughton, Leier, Ghost, Moran, Hagg, Sanheim and Stolarz are to name a few. Because of some of the veterans under contract, and a high cap hit, there currently isn't room for these guys. Moran looked good in camp and should have had at least 9 games this year. Problems was that we had too many One way contacts ahead of him. Ghost was one of the best dmen in pre-season but there was no way to keep him up. A good friend, who knows a hell of a lot more about hockey than me comments that if you put them all in blank sweaters and did not know who each guy was, you would have picked Ghost as a top 6 guy. I hate to think that this will happen again next year because Grossmann, A Mac and L. Schenn are making so much money that you have to keep them. This is a problem. I don't want to see any of these guys or B. Schenn moved for another average over priced guy. We have a decent young core but too many average players making too much money. The average over paid guys are blocking the way for the young bucks. Our top ranked rookie this year is Akeson. This doesn't seem possible. Personally, I think he has talent but he is a currently 4th line player that doesn't fit in the 4th line and is now in the dog house. I am all for moving dead weight to open spots for the young guys. The bonus is creating cap space. With a core of G, Jake, Simmonds, B.Schenn, Read, Couts, with veterans, Vinny, Umberger and Frenchie, we should have a better than mediocre team with even a mediocre defense. I have been a Flyers fan for 42 years and for the 1st time in a long time am looking forward to seeing some of the younger guys step up. Its killing me that this isn't even an option. I can live with mediocre if there are some young guys that I can look forward to. The quick fix has left us in this situation and Hexy will have to be patient with this fan base that wants instant gratification.

 

[chy1127]

I really hope that no one is suggesting that L. Schenn, Grossmann or A Mac are prospects. They are at best depth players that are making more than depth money and will be blocking the way for the prospects to crack the line up. Who can honestly say that they are looking forward to this being 1/2 of the defense core next year for cap hits of $3.6, $3.5 and $5.0? I could survive with 2 of these guys but 3 is not going to cut it.

 

[chy1127]

Good discussion guys. I am looking forward to watching tonight. Good offense, solid goaltending and decent defense and it should be interesting.