The NCAA Needs to Act

[trojanfan12]

That's kind of double talk. Carmelo Anthony didn't think he was NBA ready especially entering the NBA the same year as Lebron. So he comes to SU for one year and wins an NC. His stock is through the roof.

But now you suggest he must stay another year rather than sign that mega paycheck with Denver? This is the NBA's fault for offering up the money.

It's the same in basketball as it is in football. If a player decides to go back to school for another season, then the professional league scouts and coaches spend that season picking apart every aspect of their game and wondering "what's wrong?".

The majority of the time, they end up dropping in the draft, which costs them money even if they play just as well in that additional season as they did in the previous season.

 

[trojanfan12]

It's a combination of NBA GMs over-risking and kids just being plain greedier.

Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, and Grant Hill all could have come out way early. They were guaranteed top picks. Nothing was stopping them.

It was just a different culture back then. Nowadays, you have guys leaving early who haven't done anything. The thought that a guy like Miles Turner would turn pro 20 years ago was laughable.

It cheapens both games. Back then, you'd have a guy like Alonzo Mourning who could help you win on the college level AND he would come into the NBA ready to contribute.

Trust me when I say it was better.

Heck, there was a time when freshmen weren't even allowed to play varsity sports. In Kareem's (the Lew Alcindor) freshman season at UCLA, the freshman team was better than the varsity and used to beat them regularly in practice. Yet, none of those kids could play on the varsity.

Not saying that the NCAA should return to that, but both the NBA and college game were better overall products tend to be better when kids stay in college longer.

 

[UKnation87]

Naming a few players who give back to the community is not my point. It is why I said you might need to put you energies into supporting a pro team. Supporting young men (18 year olds) would indicate that you don't only support them at UK but in fact at any school they attend as long as they give back if and when they become successful.
I would agree if they were also re-enrolling to get their degrees. I don't know for many that is true. The college experience is not meant to be one semester of classes, a heavy game schedule in January and February and the NCAA in March and then the NBA draft. Do you really think any of the guys declaring for the draft are attending class anymore. And if they don't get drafted, they no longer have the scholarship and are not likely to re-enroll at their own expense.

And it is not just UK. There are many others but few with the consistent "one and done" rep that UK has.

Cheering for a college team should be more than " cheering for laundry."

I was answering specifically from a UK's fan point of view because you asked how anyone could be fan of a consistent one and done team like UK... I thought my answer was pretty clear. Regardless if these kids are at UK for one year or four, I will always be a fan of the program because the kids will move on at some point.

Also, I can only think of one kid who didn't continue to attend class at UK after declaring and that Daniel Orton. UK makes it known the GPA of BOTH semesters for basketball and I believe the kids that Cal is recruiting understand the impact of not finishing the 2nd semester on the school and their teammates that are sticking around for another year.

It's pretty easy to monitor as schools who have kids that don't finish class have a low APR. UK, had a 989 APR (which is really high by the way) for the last recorded year of 2013.

 

[trojanfan12]

Well, yes and no. It might hurt kids, or it might not. The college football system doesn't seem to hurt many kids, with the exception of those that might have gotten injured. But, who is to say those injuries wouldn't have happened anyhow...without a degree to fall back on, they are worse off.

Kids that came straight from high school to the NBA were not at all mentally prepared...their failing in huge numbers is why the NBA started insisting on the 1 year in college. Now, we are basically getting the same thing except these one and done types are faking their way through a semester of college then leaving for the draft. They would hone their games and definitely mentally mature a lot by sticking around for 3 years minimum.

Yes and no to your yes and no.

It seems that kids that could be drafted after their junior year, get penalized if they return for their senior year. For example, if Matt Leinart had come out after his junior year, he'd have been the #1 pick. He came back for his senior year, had a slightly better season statistically and dropped to #10.

 

[Tharvot]

Yes and no to your yes and no.

It seems that kids that could be drafted after their junior year, get penalized if they return for their senior year. For example, if Matt Leinart had come out after his junior year, he'd have been the #1 pick. He came back for his senior year, had a slightly better season statistically and dropped to #10.

Certainly there's a case by case basis. I don't think there's much question that college juniors are more physically and mentally mature than high school seniors on average.

 

[jonvi]

Naming a few players who give back to the community is not my point. It is why I said you might need to put you energies into supporting a pro team. Supporting young men (18 year olds) would indicate that you don't only support them at UK but in fact at any school they attend as long as they give back if and when they become successful.
I would agree if they were also re-enrolling to get their degrees. I don't know for many that is true. The college experience is not meant to be one semester of classes, a heavy game schedule in January and February and the NCAA in March and then the NBA draft. Do you really think any of the guys declaring for the draft are attending class anymore. And if they don't get drafted, they no longer have the scholarship and are not likely to re-enroll at their own expense.

And it is not just UK. There are many others but few with the consistent "one and done" rep that UK has.

Cheering for a college team should be more than " cheering for laundry."

WTF? Question why a person roots for UK? Have you lost your mind. Your approval is required as much as mine is required when discussing the team you root for.

UK is doing just what every college is doing...only better.

 

[trojanfan12]

Certainly there's a case by case basis. I don't think there's much question that college juniors are more physically and mentally mature than high school seniors on average.

I agree. My point was that this has a good bit to do with why players leave school early. It seems that if they decide to come back, regardless of the reason, it ends up costing them money. If there were a way to remedy that aspect, then I think more kids would return for another season in both sports.

I think the ability to purchase "loss of value insurance" like gordontrue pointed out could be a good step in that direction.

 

[redseat]

Bottom Line: A coaches job is to recruit and bring in players who will WIN games for the University...... They don't care if they get a player for 4 years if they can get the big win their freshman year. As I mentioned before this is all driven by money! Wins bring in money! I highly doubt Presidents and ADs are telling coaches, "bring kids in that will stay 4 years and have us win nothing."

 

[Tharvot]

I agree. My point was that this has a good bit to do with why players leave school early. It seems that if they decide to come back, regardless of the reason, it ends up costing them money. If there were a way to remedy that aspect, then I think more kids would return for another season in both sports.

I think the ability to purchase "loss of value insurance" like gordontrue pointed out could be a good step in that direction.

No doubt, and I don't blame them for leaving if they think they've maximized their potential draft value.

I'm all for the "loss of value insurance" idea, especially for those who might have suffered a career ending injury while still in school.

 

[jonvi]

Heck, there was a time when freshmen weren't even allowed to play varsity sports. In Kareem's (the Lew Alcindor) freshman season at UCLA, the freshman team was better than the varsity and used to beat them regularly in practice. Yet, none of those kids could play on the varsity.

Not saying that the NCAA should return to that, but both the NBA and college game were better overall products tend to be better when kids stay in college longer.

Sullinger (Center, tOSU) from a few years back comes to mind as well. The guy was estimated at a top 5 but he stayed thinking tOSU had a shot at a NC, but got hurt and dropped to 20ish the next year when he did finally enter the draft.

 

[rmilia1]

Ive always thought that the choice should be A. Go to the HBA directly out of high school OR B. When you sign with a school you need to be there 3 years at a minimum. That doesnt hurt anyone as the athletes are free to go to the NBA or Europe and get paid and the schools get a really good player for 3 years should they sign. The one and done is stupid because it penalizes the kids and while it helps some programs it hurts many more in CBB. The reason the same schools get the top recruiiting classes every year is that those schools have 6/7/8 scholarships to offer every year. Of course UK/Duke etc get the best classes. They are already traditional powers AND they also have more scholarships to offer. With the growth of AAU basketball all these kids have known each other for 5+ years. Its human nature to want to play with your buddies and if you can do it at a powerhouse school then thats even better. The other 350 or so schools are left competing for scraps. While it has always been the case that those types of schools had first pick they didnt used to get first, second, thrid, fourth and fifth pick.

 

[jonvi]

^^^Again take Carmello Anthony for instance. The guy said he wasn't NBA ready coming out of high school. But after the one year at SU and winning an NC and having his stock show him to be a potential number 1 pick (ended up 3 I thinK).

Why should we demand a Carmello Anthony to stay in college another 2 years. I was happy to have him the one year. Your rule would have forced him into the NBA straight out of HS.

 

[NickVT10]

Just allow them to go to the NBA from high school and the problem is solved. The issue is the NBA rule, not the NCAAs

 

[Codaxx]

How can a fan be for a consistent "one and done" team (Kentucky?). Does the basketball team really represent the school. How many of these freshman going into the draft (not necessarily getting drafted) will be attending class the rest of this semester. When Derek Rose chose to go to Memphis it was because Illinois would not accept him because he when he would not release his test results. What does this say about Memphis.--- Memphis took him after the Clearing House approved his transcript, so the better question maybe "what does this say about the NCAA"

The fans of these teams need to get behind pro teams and forget about the college teams.

By the way every year about 80 underclassmen opt for the draft. Even if non of the seniors and no foreign players are drafted the will only be 64 of them drafted. Obviously, someone is giving them bad advise. They are not bad basketball players (actually some of the best in the world)they are just not NBA caliber players. So when people say don't deny them the money, what do they say to those left by the wayside. Few actually go back to college on their own especially if they would never have been accepted if not for their basketball ability.

So maybe something along the line of a contract. Full tuition for 3 years, some extra money, real classes and projection towards a degree. In return the playe is prohibited from playing basketball elsewhere (the equal of a non compete clause in an employment contract). If he is cut from the team, the school cannot pull the scholarship (and is still limited by the number of scholarships), but the player must continue on toward the degree. They won't try to get cut because not getting to play is a sure path to not being drafted. Some devil in the details but workable in some fashion. Career ending injury would allow the team to replace the scholarship, but would still allow the player to keep his.

In that case how can anyone be a fan of professional sports?

I'm telling you guys... loss-of-value insurance is the answer to everything.

Previously, players were only allowed to take out loans on future earnings to get injury insurance - only covers career ending injuries. This is nice, but doesn't cover lost income if your draft stock plummets. Loss-of-value insurance would cover that... but is quite expensive.

Now, reportedly, (as of Oct)... the NCAA will allow players to take out loans on future earnings in order to purchase loss-of-value insurance. With that in hand... there is very little risk in going back to school. The insurance policy will pay out if something happens to draft value. It makes weighing another year in school vs potential risk of losing money much tougher of a decision.

Once this becomes official and coaches and players are more aware of it... I think it can make a huge difference in top talent coming back to school.

I find this a bit disturbing. Several schools have taken out insurance policies on athletes. That is a clear benefit. I am not sure how the NCAA allows this to happen. I also wonder how the policies are written. Are they insurance on career ending injuries, which many have been. That could mean a top 5 projection comes back blows out a knee and becomes a second round kid, but no pay-out. Do they strike the kid at a draft spot? or is just a 1st round pick? There are lot of subtleties that can be manipulated to either hurt a player or serve as a payment to the player.

 

[Codaxx]

If you want to. Only players I think of that left after their freshman year were Maggette, Deng, Irving, Rivers, and Parker. They've had a few sophomores leave that's not a " One and Done". If there are more name them....

I havent thought too much about it, but figured over the years there have been more. I cant remember if guys like Brand or Avery took off after 1 season. Duke has had a lot of talent over the years.

 

[gordontrue]

I find this a bit disturbing. Several schools have taken out insurance policies on athletes. That is a clear benefit. I am not sure how the NCAA allows this to happen. I also wonder how the policies are written. Are they insurance on career ending injuries, which many have been. That could mean a top 5 projection comes back blows out a knee and becomes a second round kid, but no pay-out. Do they strike the kid at a draft spot? or is just a 1st round pick? There are lot of subtleties that can be manipulated to either hurt a player or serve as a payment to the player.

1) Schools are allowed under NCAA rules to use their Student Assistance Allowance to pay for insurance policies for players. The allowance is very limited and used for other things, though, so its not like a school can just start purchasing policies right and left for any player. It has been used pretty selectively.

2) Correct. These insurance policies that have been commonly used by NCAA athletes pay-out only for career-ending injuries. You don't get anything for losing draft stock. Because of that stipulation... the policies are actually pretty inexpensive. Thus, some schools have been able to fit in in the assistance allowance... and some players have just purchased it themselves.

3) With the new rule that started in October... players are allowed to secure a loan (using future NBA/NFL earnings as collateral) IF they use the loan to purchase an insurance policy. This makes purchasing a more inclusive policy, such as a loss of value policy or a draft position policy possible (they are more expensive than the injury policies). These policies would pay out the difference in value for a player whose draft stock falls.

Personally, I think its a very positive thing. It doesn't give the player access to money while they're in school... it just gives them financial security towards their earning talent if they choose to stay at school.

 

[Ron G]

^^^This^^^

The NBA raised the age limit to be eligible for the draft.

As for one and done's, I don't have much of a problem with it. If a kid was at a school on an academic scholarship and some company wanted to hire them after a year or 2 and pay them a huge salary, no one would be complaining or calling for the NCAA to "act."

Imo, the only problem on the NCAA's part is that if a kid declares for the draft, he's no longer eligible to play in college. I think that if a kid declares and isn't drafted, he should be able to start/return to college as long as he didn't hire an agent.

 

[Codaxx]

1) Schools are allowed under NCAA rules to use their Student Assistance Allowance to pay for insurance policies for players. The allowance is very limited and used for other things, though, so its not like a school can just start purchasing policies right and left for any player. It has been used pretty selectively.

2) Correct. These insurance policies that have been commonly used by NCAA athletes pay-out only for career-ending injuries. You don't get anything for losing draft stock. Because of that stipulation... the policies are actually pretty inexpensive. Thus, some schools have been able to fit in in the assistance allowance... and some players have just purchased it themselves.

3) With the new rule that started in October... players are allowed to secure a loan (using future NBA/NFL earnings as collateral) IF they use the loan to purchase an insurance policy. This makes purchasing a more inclusive policy, such as a loss of value policy or a draft position policy possible (they are more expensive than the injury policies). These policies would pay out the difference in value for a player whose draft stock falls.

Personally, I think its a very positive thing. It doesn't give the player access to money while they're in school... it just gives them financial security towards their earning talent if they choose to stay at school.

1. That one is ripe for manipulation, even if it is done on a limited basis. It is also clearly a benefit. Not sure how you can give a kid an insurance policy, but not a free ride somewhere.

3. This is a good thing, but I would guess the insurance is quite expensive to strike the draft position. SO I am a bit suspicious that this will do much for kids

 

[Ron G]

The problem with your argument is that the student with the Academic Scholarship gets an offer while the athlete
may or may not get an offer when opting for the draft. Also, if the academic turns down the offer or the offer is pulled for some reason (which the school knows nothing about) he does not lose his scholarship.

How do you handle that?

 

[gordontrue]

This is a good thing, but I would guess the insurance is quite expensive to strike the draft position. SO I am a bit suspicious that this will do much for kids

Expensive, but it overcomes the risk obstacle, IMO.

Most athletes that come back to school are going to see their draft stock go up or stay the same. That's why the insurance companies can afford to sell these policies.

Lee, the USC wide receiver, bought a loss of value insurance policy. Cost him $90k for up to $5 mill in coverage. He hurt his knee or something two weeks after purchasing the policy and slid from a lottery pick to somewhere around 40th overall.... in his case it was well worth it.