The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Stakesarehigh]

Indeed, but while MJ fans regularly try to view MJ’s entire career as a 63 point game that was a loss in the playoffs, “The Shot”, 6 championship seasons only… You have to hold Jordan’s Wizards career against him, and while it was solid, he wasn’t a top 10 player in the league, not close.

I hold him quitting like a child against him more than the Wiz days. What would his legacy look like had he hung on in Chicago? To me it was intentional so we could never separate what that looks like sans Scottie.

 

[dtgold88]

I hold him quitting like a child against him more than the Wiz days. What would his legacy look like had he hung on in Chicago? To me it was intentional so we could never separate what that looks like sans Scottie.

doesn't make him a lesser player, but I'd hold his giving Krause so much shit against him, too. Guy who helped build the team around him. He was 10X the GM that MJ was.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

doesn't make him a lesser player, but I'd hold his giving Krause so much shit against him, too. Guy who helped build the team around him. He was 10X the GM that MJ was.

Jordan was a legit bully. He didnt want Krause to get his due.

 

[dtgold88]

Jordan was a legit bully. He didnt want Krause to get his due.

Yep....guess to be fair while maybe not a bully and thought way more of him than MJ thought of Krause, Griffin had no interest in staying here and hated trying to have to cater to Lebron and his whims/ideas.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yep....guess to be fair while maybe not a bully and thought way more of him than MJ thought of Krause, Griffin had no interest in staying here and hated trying to have to cater to Lebron and his whims/ideas.

If youre trying to separate your skill as a GM, player personnel guy having someone like Lebron can be a nuisance im sure

 

[dtgold88]

If youre trying to separate your skill as a GM, player personnel guy having someone like Lebron can be a nuisance im sure

Yep....Lebron can be even worse than fans. Fans want to make deals for name over fit. Lebron will make them for name AND guys he likes over fit.

Look at me....almost like I'm not a Lebron lover and willing to be critical when warranted.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Jordan was a legit bully. He didnt want Krause to get his due.

Jordan was a drama queen.. whined to the refs, often tried to work with them a la James Harden. And yes, he was a diva to the Bulls organization

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Yep....Lebron can be even worse than fans. Fans want to make deals for name over fit. Lebron will make them for name AND guys he likes over fit.

Look at me....almost like I'm not a Lebron lover and willing to be critical when warranted.

Agreed. But that’s this era where players can call the shots. If MJ played today, he’d be entitled and pressuring franchises. He’d be probably in jail for his rabid gambling too lol

 

[tlance]

Agreed. But that’s this era where players can call the shots. If MJ played today, he’d be entitled and pressuring franchises. He’d be probably in jail for his rabid gambling too lol

That is the craziest part of this debate to me.

When people talk about how Jordan played for 1 team and didn’t use his influence as much (he did try) to control the roster as some kind of win in MJ’s column.

Players from prior generations are jealous of current players. The money, the freedom of movement, the influence…

They didn’t have any of that.

But it is crazy naive to think they wouldn’t have taken advantage if they had the same opportunity.

 

[dtgold88]

That is the craziest part of this debate to me.

When people talk about how Jordan played for 1 team and didn’t use his influence as much (he did try) to control the roster as some kind of win in MJ’s column.

Players from prior generations are jealous of current players. The money, the freedom of movement, the influence…

They didn’t have any of that.

But it is crazy naive to think they wouldn’t have taken advantage if they had the same opportunity.

Of course.....as much as he despised the really good GM in Chicago I have no doubt if another team could come close to paying him what the Bulls did (Maybe the Knicks?) very good chance MJ leaves.

And hell even though not as common didn't Barkley ask for and receive a trade?

 

[tlance]

Feel free to go lin-by-line and tell me what you think is "not" factual...

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performance
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

I'll wait for your response.

Dtgold had the detailed response.

Almost none of that is factual.

 

[tlance]

Feel free to go lin-by-line and tell me what you think is "not" factual...

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performance
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

I'll wait for your response.

But you asked me to go line by line:

-GOAT level offense: definitely an opinion. But what does this even mean? There are quite a few players in the conversation for best offensive player ever. Jordan is one, but is he the best? Debatable at best.

-GOAT level defense: another opinion and many players throughout NBA history have more impressive list of defensive accolades

-GOAT level winner: that would be Bill Russell. Robert Horry even checks in above MJ.

GOAT level advanced stats: also opinion, like all others. And also very debatable

GOAT level awards/accolades: opinion. Yes his accolades are very impressive. So are LeBron’s, Kareem’s, Russell’s etc.

I could keep going, but you get the gist.

Simply stating something is “GOAT Level” is not a fact.

 

[MAGA2024]

Yeah that's one hell of a Bulls' team....maybe even better than the cast MJ had that won 55 games without him. Thanks for proving my point.

Another dumb comment "or"a VERY bad troll attempt.

Run along already...

 

[Mr. Friscus]

@tlance @dtgold88 … I think we gotta just let @MAGA2024 go.. he’s unable to make an argument and continuing with them is pointless

 

[BostonBeans]

Jordan was the best in my opinion. If he went team shopping like Hames dies he’d have won 10 championships

 

[MAGA2024]

Dtgold had the detailed response.

Almost none of that is factual.

To be clear, when I wrote "GOAT level" I wasn't implying that he was THE greatest in every category (although he is in many), only that he's in the discussion for GOAT in each area.

GOAT level Offense: 10-time Scoring Champion; All-Time leader in PPG during the Regular Season AND Playoffs, shot 50% for his career as a high-volume shot-taker, #2 all-time in OBPM, #4 in WS, #2 in OWS in Playoffs, etc., etc.

GOAT level Defense: 9-time First Team All Defense, DPOY winner with 4 seasons Top 3 voting. #1 all-time in regular season Blocks per game for a Guard, #2 all-time in career BLK for a Guard, #3 all-time in career Steals and STL per game, 3-time league-leader in Steals, only player with 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in the same season TWICE, #2 all-time Defensive WIn Shares for a Guard, etc., etc.

GOAT level Winner: Undefeated in the Finals (6-0)... only star player with at least 3 Finals appearances to never lose. Only 70 win team to win a Championship; went virtually the entire decade of the 90's without losing 3 games in a row (during RS and Playoffs). Won 25 of 26 playoff series' during the 90's, taken to 7 games only two (2) times, etc., etc.

GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics: #1 in PPG, #5 all-time in career Points, #4 all-time in career Steals and STL per game, #2 in FG Made per game (#1 in Playoffs), #2 in PER, #2 in WS per 48 (#1 in Playoffs), #2 in BPM and OBPM (#1 in Playoffs), #2 all-time in VORP (regular season and Playoffs), #2 all-time in Usage Rate (RS and Playoffs), #2 in eFG% all-time (#1 in Playoffs), led league in FG made 9 times, led league in PPG 10 times, led league in PER and Usage 7 times, led league in WS and WS48 eith (8) times, OWS, BPM, OBPM and Vorp 9 times, etc., etc... all in just 13 "full" seasons.

GOAT level Awards/Accolades: A total of 26 major awards (more than any other player) in just 13 "full" seasons, including 11 combined RS and Finals MVP's (more than any other player); undisputed Finals MVP every time he reached the Finals; 19 combined First-Time All NBA and Defense, etc., etc.

GOAT level Skills: Elite Handles, elite Footwork, elite Hops, excellent Passer, GOAT Scorer (including lethal ability at the rim, lethal in the post, lethal mid-range shot, extremely Efficient (especially considering how many shots he took), elite level Turnover/Usage rate, etc., etc.

GOAT level Athleticism: Does this even need an explanation... if it does then you have no business discussing hoops.

GOAT level Clutch: This too should need no explanation but the 1989 "buzzer-beater" jumper in series clinching Game 5 vs. Cavs; Game 3 1991 Finals game-tying jumper to send game into OT, two Free Throws in Game 2 the (God disquised as) 1986 game vs. Boston with no time on clock to send game to OT; Game 1 buzzer-beater in 97 Finals; Game 6 game-winner in 98 Finals... all-time NBA leader with 9 game-winning buzzer beaters in his NBA career (RS and Playoffs combined); 28 total game-winners, shot 50% (9-18) on game-tying or go-ahead ahots in the final 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT during the Playoffs, etc., etc.

GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performances: "The "God disguised as Jordan" game against Boston, "The Shot" game-winner-series clincher vs. Cavs in 89, and The Shot II" Playoff against the Cavs, "The Flu Game" in the 97 Finals vs. Utah, the Shrug" game in the 92 Finals vs. Portland, "The Last Shot/Pose" game-winning/series clinching shot in the 98 Finals vs. Utah, etc., etc.

GOAT level Impact (on the sport): Again, no explanation should be needed

Zero weakness/flaws in his game: Let's make it easy... why don't you go ahead and list Jordan's flaws/weaknesses if you disagree with the premise.

Never lost to a Lower Seed: Fact... look it up

Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included): Fact... look it up.

Go ahead and tell me what is "not factual", then go ahead and eplain why Jordan (allegedly) wasn't GOAT level in each category, AND finally... pick a player (any player) and let's see how they stack up.

I'll start:

LeBron: Not a GOAT level Defender, most definitely not a GOAT level Winner, didn't/doesn't have GOAT level skills, nor does he have GOAT level iconic moments, nor does/did he have a GOAT level impact on the sport AND he definitely has plenty of flaws/weakneses.

In other words he's not close to Jordan.

Who else you got?

 

[MAGA2024]

You're judging those Bulls teams defesively in a different era vs guys who weren't capable of doing what the Warriors were offensively and with nowhere close to the same level of spacing the Bulls would've had to play against.

If you watch a game from that era the entire game is played under the 3 point line . There would've been dozens of get more of room that those teams weren't used to guarding vs GS.

Its like saying the 85 Bears D was phenomenal but if they played vs the style offenses in the league now they'd give up 50 ppg. Its just different eras man

Im actually of the mindset the Bulls would have a better shot vs that GS team under current rules because theyd at least be able to play zone and MJ would have an easier time getting into the paint. Under 90s rules were you had to play man vs that kind of spacing and movement withb the skill differential being so stark they'd have no chance at all

But that's what's fun about these debates i guess

We're talking about Jordan, Pippen, Rodman (3 GOAT level defenders) and Harper (and exceptional defender). These guys were all extremely athletic and versatile and quick; they were all exceptional on-ball defenders, exceptional at playing the passing lanes, and able to rotate / help with ease. They were also known for for their full and half-court traps, enabling them to control the Pace and force the Offense into sets/shots they weren't comfortable with.. and on the flipside the Warriors Defense would have no answer for Jordan, Pippen or Kukoc, while Rodman would dominate the boards.

It would be a great series no question, but at the end of the day who is gonna bet against Jordan?

Not me...

 

[MAGA2024]

@tlance @dtgold88 … I think we gotta just let @MAGA2024 go.. he’s unable to make an argument and continuing with them is pointless

Yes because you LeBron fans have brought so much fact and substance to the conversation.

LOL

Feel free to address my second to last post above.

 

[tlance]

Jordan was the best in my opinion. If he went team shopping like Hames dies he’d have won 10 championships

Fine to say Jordan was best.

But this is a short sighted comment.

If you want to grant MJ the ability to move in free agency, you have to apply the same rules players today have.

They are virtually controlled by the teams that draft them for the first 7-8 years in the league.

Jordan won his first title with the Bulls in his 7th season.

After that, the Bulls were pretty much always the best team.

So he would not have won any more rings by team hopping. Might have won fewer.

 

[tlance]

To be clear, when I wrote "GOAT level" I wasn't implying that he was THE greatest in every category (although he is in many), only that he's in the discussion for GOAT in each area.

GOAT level Offense: 10-time Scoring Champion; All-Time leader in PPG during the Regular Season AND Playoffs, shot 50% for his career as a high-volume shot-taker, #2 all-time in OBPM, #4 in WS, #2 in OWS in Playoffs, etc., etc.

GOAT level Defense: 9-time First Team All Defense, DPOY winner with 4 seasons Top 3 voting. #1 all-time in regular season Blocks per game for a Guard, #2 all-time in career BLK for a Guard, #3 all-time in career Steals and STL per game, 3-time league-leader in Steals, only player with 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in the same season TWICE, #2 all-time Defensive WIn Shares for a Guard, etc., etc.

GOAT level Winner: Undefeated in the Finals (6-0)... only star player with at least 3 Finals appearances to never lose. Only 70 win team to win a Championship; went virtually the entire decade of the 90's without losing 3 games in a row (during RS and Playoffs). Won 25 of 26 playoff series' during the 90's, taken to 7 games only two (2) times, etc., etc.

GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics: #1 in PPG, #5 all-time in career Points, #4 all-time in career Steals and STL per game, #2 in FG Made per game (#1 in Playoffs), #2 in PER, #2 in WS per 48 (#1 in Playoffs), #2 in BPM and OBPM (#1 in Playoffs), #2 all-time in VORP (regular season and Playoffs), #2 all-time in Usage Rate (RS and Playoffs), #2 in eFG% all-time (#1 in Playoffs), led league in FG made 9 times, led league in PPG 10 times, led league in PER and Usage 7 times, led league in WS and WS48 eith (8) times, OWS, BPM, OBPM and Vorp 9 times, etc., etc... all in just 13 "full" seasons.

GOAT level Awards/Accolades: A total of 26 major awards (more than any other player) in just 13 "full" seasons, including 11 combined RS and Finals MVP's (more than any other player); undisputed Finals MVP every time he reached the Finals; 19 combined First-Time All NBA and Defense, etc., etc.

GOAT level Skills: Elite Handles, elite Footwork, elite Hops, excellent Passer, GOAT Scorer (including lethal ability at the rim, lethal in the post, lethal mid-range shot, extremely Efficient (especially considering how many shots he took), elite level Turnover/Usage rate, etc., etc.

GOAT level Athleticism: Does this even need an explanation... if it does then you have no business discussing hoops.

GOAT level Clutch: This too should need no explanation but the 1989 "buzzer-beater" jumper in series clinching Game 5 vs. Cavs; Game 3 1991 Finals game-tying jumper to send game into OT, two Free Throws in Game 2 the (God disquised as) 1986 game vs. Boston with no time on clock to send game to OT; Game 1 buzzer-beater in 97 Finals; Game 6 game-winner in 98 Finals... all-time NBA leader with 9 game-winning buzzer beaters in his NBA career (RS and Playoffs combined); 28 total game-winners, shot 50% (9-18) on game-tying or go-ahead ahots in the final 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT during the Playoffs, etc., etc.

GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performances: "The "God disguised as Jordan" game against Boston, "The Shot" game-winner-series clincher vs. Cavs in 89, and The Shot II" Playoff against the Cavs, "The Flu Game" in the 97 Finals vs. Utah, the Shrug" game in the 92 Finals vs. Portland, "The Last Shot/Pose" game-winning/series clinching shot in the 98 Finals vs. Utah, etc., etc.

GOAT level Impact (on the sport): Again, no explanation should be needed

Zero weakness/flaws in his game: Let's make it easy... why don't you go ahead and list Jordan's flaws/weaknesses if you disagree with the premise.

Never lost to a Lower Seed: Fact... look it up

Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included): Fact... look it up.

Go ahead and tell me what is "not factual", then go ahead and eplain why Jordan (allegedly) wasn't GOAT level in each category, AND finally... pick a player (any player) and let's see how they stack up.

I'll start:

LeBron: Not a GOAT level Defender, most definitely not a GOAT level Winner, didn't/doesn't have GOAT level skills, nor does he have GOAT level iconic moments, nor does/did he have a GOAT level impact on the sport AND he definitely has plenty of flaws/weakneses.

In other words he's not close to Jordan.

Who else you got?

Ok?

A little better.

But still opinions now backed up by facts.

LeBron was absolutely a “GOAT level” on all of those things by your very definition of the term.