The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[msgkings322]

The thing I've always found intriguing about baskeyball fandom is it's the only team sport where people think ( almost always ) that the guys they grew up watching played in the toughest era ever

No one says that about football or hockey. And not even really baseball ( which loves is older players more than anyone )

Sure there are people who maybe enjoyed watching football more in 1988 than they si now but no one thinks thinks the 88 Redskins would beat the 24 Eagles

But for whatever reason every hoops fan thinks the era they feel in love with the game is actually the best ever. Kind of weird.

Indeed and these types ignore how much better everyone gets at sports over time. Just purely on talent alone, the more money involved the more the best athletes from all over the world are playing. There were billions fewer humans decades ago and foreigners weren’t playing in US sports. Kids werent training from age 5 all year round to play pro sports. Heck before the 50s pro players had offseason jobs to make ends meet

 

[MAGA2024]

Yeah, all facts here.

Ok dude

Feel free to go lin-by-line and tell me what you think is "not" factual...

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performance
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

I'll wait for your response.

 

[rmilia1]

Indeed and these types ignore how much better everyone gets at sports over time. Just purely on talent alone, the more money involved the more the best athletes from all over the world are playing. There were billions fewer humans decades ago and foreigners weren’t playing in US sports. Kids werent training from age 5 all year round to play pro sports. Heck before the 50s pro players had offseason jobs to make ends meet

Yep. I always see these types of " who would win? The 96 Bulls vs 17 Warriors" type questions and it just amazes me how many people say the Bulls

Like i legit think the Warriors would win every game by 30+ yet tons of people out there see it differently.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yep. I always see these types of " who would win? The 96 Bulls vs 17 Warriors" type questions and it just amazes me how many people say the Bulls

Like i peptide think the Warriors would win every game by 30+ yet tons of people out there see it differently.

The problem with those comparisons is the outcome is likely to be markedly different depending on which era's rules you're using.

If the Bulls are allowed to play by 90's rules, they likely win...under today's rules...it would be the Warriors.

 

[dtgold88]

Feel free to go lin-by-line and tell me what you think is "not" factual...

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performance
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

I'll wait for your response.

sure...

not
not
not
not
not
not
not
not
not
yes
not
yes
yes

**last 2 I said yes, but did not fact check and know you have lied before

yes before that? I mean, not sure it's factual but can make very strong case.

 

[MAGA2024]

Yep. I always see these types of " who would win? The 96 Bulls vs 17 Warriors" type questions and it just amazes me how many people say the Bulls

Like i peptide think the Warriors would win every game by 30+ yet tons of people out there see it differently.

the 96 Bulls had four (4) elite-to-GOAT level "perimeter" Defenders... all between 6'5 and 6'8, all extremely quick, athletic, long, and interchangeable. They also featured a standout (little) Guard in Randy Brown and, while he wasn't much of an on-ball defender, Toni Kukoc was a solid help-defender (on the perimeter and in the paint) with his 6'11 height and tremendous length.

Those Warriors didn't face a Defense even close to the Bulls' level of dominance. Defensively those Bulls were able to control the Pace of the game, and while they wouldn't shut-down the '17 Warriors they sure as hell wouldn't allow them to score anywhere remotely close to the 115-120 points they averaged in the regular season and playoffs that year.

GS by 30 every game??? lol... that's beyond silly.

 

[MAGA2024]

sure...

not
not
not
not
not
not
not
not
not
yes
not
yes
yes

**last 2 I said yes, but did not fact check and know you have lied before

yes before that? I mean, not sure it's factual but can make very strong case.

Now you're just being dumb "or" you're attempting to troll VERY badly. Either way it's clear you have no clue.

 

[dtgold88]

the 96 Bulls had four (4) elite-to-GOAT level "perimeter" Defenders... all between 6'5 and 6'8, all extremely quick, athletic, long, and interchangeable. They also featured a standout (little) Guard in Randy Brown and, while he wasn't much of an on-ball defender, Toni Kukoc was a solid help-defender (on the perimeter and in the paint) with his 6'11 height and tremendous length.

Those Warriors didn't face a Defense even close to the Bulls' level of dominance. Defensively those Bulls were able to control the Pace of the game, and while they wouldn't shut-down the '17 Warriors they sure as hell wouldn't allow them to score anywhere remotely close to the 115-120 points they averaged in the regular season and playoffs that year.

GS by 30 every game??? lol... that's beyond silly.

Yeah that's one hell of a Bulls' team....maybe even better than the cast MJ had that won 55 games without him. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[dtgold88]

Now you're just being dumb "or" you're attempting to troll VERY badly. Either way it's clear you have no clue.

Not going through them all but you just don't know the definition of fact vs. opinion. Learn that and we can go further.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The problem with those comparisons is the outcome is likely to be markedly different depending on which era's rules you're using.

If the Bulls are allowed to play by 90's rules, they likely win...under today's rules...it would be the Warriors.

This is the answer.

 

[dtgold88]

This is the answer.

I like MAGA's answer where he gets to pick an easy Bulls win due to how great the roster is.....then later claim MJ did not need great rosters like that to win titles.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Not so sure Phillip is GOAT coach but can be in the discussion.....and that's true what you said. He also quit the second time when he knew things might be tougher with no Pippen AND Phillip.

We didn’t get to see Jordan without Pippen, Jackson, and the stable organization behind him (things Lebron rarely had)

 

[rmilia1]

the 96 Bulls had four (4) elite-to-GOAT level "perimeter" Defenders... all between 6'5 and 6'8, all extremely quick, athletic, long, and interchangeable. They also featured a standout (little) Guard in Randy Brown and, while he wasn't much of an on-ball defender, Toni Kukoc was a solid help-defender (on the perimeter and in the paint) with his 6'11 height and tremendous length.

Those Warriors didn't face a Defense even close to the Bulls' level of dominance. Defensively those Bulls were able to control the Pace of the game, and while they wouldn't shut-down the '17 Warriors they sure as hell wouldn't allow them to score anywhere remotely close to the 115-120 points they averaged in the regular season and playoffs that year.

GS by 30 every game??? lol... that's beyond silly.

You're judging those Bulls teams defesively in a different era vs guys who weren't capable of doing what the Warriors were offensively and with nowhere close to the same level of spacing the Bulls would've had to play against.

If you watch a game from that era the entire game is played under the 3 point line . There would've been dozens of get more of room that those teams weren't used to guarding vs GS.

Its like saying the 85 Bears D was phenomenal but if they played vs the style offenses in the league now they'd give up 50 ppg. Its just different eras man

Im actually of the mindset the Bulls would have a better shot vs that GS team under current rules because theyd at least be able to play zone and MJ would have an easier time getting into the paint. Under 90s rules were you had to play man vs that kind of spacing and movement withb the skill differential being so stark they'd have no chance at all

But that's what's fun about these debates i guess

 

[Mr. Friscus]

This is the answer.

If the Bulls can’t catch up to the ball to guard the 3 their interior defense would be neutralized

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Now you're just being dumb "or" you're attempting to troll VERY badly. Either way it's clear you have no clue.

“GOAT level” is a vague opinion. It’s not a fact

 

[msgkings322]

Yep. I always see these types of " who would win? The 96 Bulls vs 17 Warriors" type questions and it just amazes me how many people say the Bulls

Like i legit think the Warriors would win every game by 30+ yet tons of people out there see it differently.

As trojan said the rules they use would matter, I think the Warriors would win the series but not necessarily by such big margins using 90s rules

 

[Stakesarehigh]

If the Bulls can’t catch up to the ball to guard the 3 their interior defense would be neutralized

Id also add a real problem for the Bulls is they dont have much to overwhelm the Dubs from an interior scoring perspective either.

 

[dtgold88]

We didn’t get to see Jordan without Pippen, Jackson, and the stable organization behind him (things Lebron rarely had)

well we did in Washington. Didn't go so well.

 

[rmilia1]

As trojan said the rules they use would matter, I think the Warriors would win the series but not necessarily by such big margins using 90s rules

I think the 90s rules actually help GS and the Build would fair better under current rules

Those teams ib the 90s didn't see spacing and movement like theyv spotlight with GS and having to play man vs that even with the ability to be more physical ) just isn't doable for them getting dropped into it like that

Maybe if they had a few years worth of practice playing in that kind of space vs, that kind of skill/ shooting

But if you just magically transported the 17 Dubs to 1996 and says " go play a game" those Chicago v teams would have never seen anything like what GS could do

 

[Mr. Friscus]

well we did in Washington. Didn't go so well.

Indeed, but while MJ fans regularly try to view MJ’s entire career as a 63 point game that was a loss in the playoffs, “The Shot”, 6 championship seasons only… You have to hold Jordan’s Wizards career against him, and while it was solid, he wasn’t a top 10 player in the league, not close.