The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[BigFin]

The GOAT career vs the GOAT at playing basketball

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I'll make the case (for MJ as the undisputed GOAT):

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary Performances
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game

… all of those are undefined descriptions
Except for the last one, which by definition is untrue, because there’s no such thing as the perfect defender, and MJ wasn’t the “best” defender in NBA history, so he’s not the gold standard either.

You’ve gotta do better.

Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

There ya go, some actual points. They are team centered but still promote his success.

This is just off the top of my head (there's obviously more, much more)... but even with just that, there is no other player who comes close to matching Jordan's Total Package of dominance, let alone surpass it.

Like I said, you’ve gotta do better.. that was about as lazy as you can get

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Again... facts don't lie. I bring facts... that you don't understand the context of the link I referenced is on you.

You really don’t. You need to look up fact vs. opinion on google

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Goats don’t flop, fake injuries, take games off, get swept multiple times in the finals, cry every time there is a foul call, walks off court with time left in the game, disappears in 4th quarters and so forth.

MJ whined to the refs nonstop..

Oh, and GOATS don’t quit and take seasons off. To throw shade and take on a players, Russell, Lebron, Kareem, and Wilt played every year.. you could say MJ was soft in this regard because he wasnt able to answer the bell every year

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Goats don’t flop, fake injuries, take games off, get swept multiple times in the finals, cry every time there is a foul call, walks off court with time left in the game, disappears in 4th quarters and so forth.

They just quit because their best teammate wants more money

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The GOAT career vs the GOAT at playing basketball

I'm willing to make that distinction

 

[trojanfan12]

and WTF is Tommy???

The Pinball Wizard?

 

[dtgold88]

And they made it because of LeBron

No other fucking reason

Might be wrong but didn't one of the MJ nuthuggers try to say Lebron didn't do much to get Cavs to 07 Finals or something like that? Not trying to bring back bad memories but he had to have missed Game 5 vs. Detroit, right?

 

[dtgold88]

You not understanding how to interpret the content in the link does not = me lying... and WTF is Tommy???

Tommy Flanagan-Jon Lovitz. May have based that character off of you? Or you are trying to become him?

 

[dtgold88]

Finishing runner-up is not the stuff of GOATS, especially when you get swept... and if we're going to reward LeBron for getting TO the Finals (in a weak Conference with not much help around him) we must also hold it against him for laying an egg IN the Finals.

Jordan (like James in 07) lost early in his career to much more talented "teams"; however win OR lose MJ was always dominating, and aside from maybe 2-3 series throughout his entire career he was always the best player on the floor on either team.

LeBron not so much.

But don't hold it against MJ for not even getting to the Finals or never winning a series without Pippen holding his hand, right?

 

[dtgold88]

The thing I've always found intriguing about baskeyball fandom is it's the only team sport where people think ( almost always ) that the guys they grew up watching played in the toughest era ever

No one says that about football or hockey. And not even really baseball ( which loves is older players more than anyone )

Sure there are people who maybe enjoyed watching football more in 1988 than they si now but no one thinks thinks the 88 Redskins would beat the 24 Eagles

But for whatever reason every hoops fan thinks the era they feel in love with the game is actually the best ever. Kind of weird.

Great point and never thought of this...but entirely true.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

But don't hold it against MJ for not even getting to the Finals or never winning a series without Pippen holding his hand, right?

Don’t forget getting the GOAT Coach Phil Jackson.. that’s the big part.

Kobe and Shaq were losing easily in the West in the late 90’s. Phil shows up and instant 3-peat

 

[dtgold88]

Goats don’t flop, fake injuries, take games off, get swept multiple times in the finals, cry every time there is a foul call, walks off court with time left in the game, disappears in 4th quarters and so forth.

they don't "take games off"? do they quit and take seasons off?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Might be wrong but didn't one of the MJ nuthuggers try to say Lebron didn't do much to get Cavs to 07 Finals or something like that? Not trying to bring back bad memories but he had to have missed Game 5 vs. Detroit, right?

Yes that was the crux of our argument. That also completely ignores the amount of energy Detroit had to put towards stopping LeBron

 

[dtgold88]

I'll make the case (for MJ as the undisputed GOAT):

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary Performances
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

This is just off the top of my head (there's obviously more, much more)... but even with just that, there is no other player who comes close to matching Jordan's Total Package of dominance, let alone surpass it.

Other than possibly the last 2 no facts included there. Care to try again using only facts?

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah, all facts here.

Ok dude

ninjad

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Great point and never thought of this...but entirely true.

There’s a ton of age-ism by youngsters in basketball. Like, if they lived in 1954 they would have done drills that didn’t exist yet, taken supplements that didn’t exist yet, focus on nutrition that didn’t exist in basketball yet, apply weightlifting which wasn’t done yet, and have a mindset in the sport that didn’t exist yet.

 

[dtgold88]

Don’t forget getting the GOAT Coach Phil Jackson.. that’s the big part.

Kobe and Shaq were losing easily in the West in the late 90’s. Phil shows up and instant 3-peat

Not so sure Phillip is GOAT coach but can be in the discussion.....and that's true what you said. He also quit the second time when he knew things might be tougher with no Pippen AND Phillip.