The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[dtgold88]

You're free to address points I made. I don't think you will. It seems like you have a sentimental ego claim, and if anyone disagrees, even if they give factual reasons, you call them "excuses".

I guess you demand religious faith in your assertion? Sorry.. doesn't work like that. You're free to make your case for Jordan, you haven't made one.

I mean, to be fair, not that hard to make a case for MJ........but it's absurd to think it's not even a debate.

 

[dtgold88]

I don't have to make a case. The fact your case relies so heavily on excuses, narratives and degradations is enough for me to dismiss it.

oh, the irony.

 

[dtgold88]

How did "I" lie...? I didn't make up the numbers; was referencing the chart in the link that was posted, and those PPG stats reflect the entire time a player teamed with Jordan / LeBron vs. the portion of their career when they did not. It's not looking at just one (1) random season.

I don't lie... when you have facts on yiour side there's no reason to lie.

You lied, Tommy, by saying "not one single teammate improved his scoring numbers with Lebron" and I checked only 3 and all 3 did.

 

[dtgold88]

Another point I'd like to address is the "no winning season until 4th year" as well as 1994.

It took until 1990, Jordan's sixth season, for the Bulls to have a winning record when he didn't score at least 30 points. The supporting cast was particularly awful in 1986-87: the Bulls were 37-30 when Jordan scored 30+, 3-12 when he scored anything less than that. It's also silly to hold his second season against him when he hardly played due to injury and was on a minutes restriction when he returned late in the season.

For all the claims about LeBron having "bums" as teammates his first Cleveland stint, Jordan's were actually worse in his early years. And for all the narratives about Bron dragging "bums" to the NBA Finals in 2007, the Cavs were 27-18 when he scored less than 30.

As for 1994, the Bulls were 20-44 when Jordan was out with the broken foot in '86.

OK....and 55-27 after he quit the first time. Most games MJ ever won without Pippen?

 

[dtgold88]

I have data backing up my claims. You haven't refuted anything.

Can we do this.....you can make all the rules in this discussion but you have to stick with the rules you make? No bouncing around to support your agenda. Want to make it all about rings? OK. some random advanced stat? Cool. whatever you want, Just figure it out and let me know.

 

[dtgold88]

No, the question is actually irrelevant. For several reasons

1. Game 5 was a major outlier. Aside from that one game, he averaged just 21 PPG on 39% shooting. Cleveland won the series anyway.

2. Boobie Gibson had 31 in the clincher, a game where Bron couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He also has 21 in their Game 4 win, another game in which Bron didn't exactly set the world on fire.

3. LeBron was outright trash in the first two games, but Detroit only won both of those games by three points.

Ultimately, these details undermine any claims that his teammates were "bums" and render your question irrelevant.

2. Did you really say Lebron didn't exactly set world on fire (now, of course, he literally did not)? This was the 2007 season, correct? Sure you don't want to walk that back?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

oh, the irony.

I love the “I don’t have to make a case” line.

Um, yea you do. That’s what I notice about most MJ fans. They don’t want to have a “who is the GOAT” debate… they want to say “MJ is the GOAT, and your stupid and don’t know basketball if you don’t agree” discussion.

If MJ is so much above all others, should be easy to lay out the case. They never feel like they have to make a case, it’s silly

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You're a fucking clown. Tell us more how the 47 win 89 Bulls that needed a miracle to win round one are evidence of anything. Answer the question, how many points did Lebrons teammates score in OT in game 5 of the 2007 ECF ?

The consistent issue with MJ homers such as yourself is you constantly have to try and run down teams LeBron beat or things LeBron accomplished.

Notice how non MJ homers don't do this? MJ was amazing, can easily argue he was the GOAT. But when you have to say absolutely dumb shit like the 89 Knicks were better than the 07 Pistons to make a point, you are arguing 100 percent from emotion and hate and nothing else.

Giving LeBron his due takes nothing away from MJ. None of us ever bicker with @thunderc about this because he doesnt then try shitting all over LeBron to make his case.

It’s severe insecurity

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Oh, the irony.

Is there some rule to join the MJ is clear GOAT club you must make up lies to support your agenda? Is the late Jon Lovits/Tommy Flanagan the founder of this club?

Not even anyone in this discussion who thinks Lebron is the clear GOAT or even GOAT at all.

Notice I didn’t bring up Lebron in my comprehensive critique of MJ’s claim, and @Albuquerque Rams goes straight Lebron obsessed and say he doesn’t have to make a case for MJ.

It shows a weak position, and insecurity in one’s convictions, as well as way too much emotion and ego wrapped up in it all

 

[tlance]

Based on what, the fact that they embarrassed LeBron/Cavs in the Finals?

Yes, it certainly IS (easily) debatable given the fact that the 07 Cavs were one of the weakest Finals representatives in NBA history.

07 Cavs were almost surely the weakest Finals representative in the last 25 years.

That is one true statement you have made.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Yes. So harmful for the team they only won wings with him on the roster. If they went 3-12 with him scoring less than 30 that one season, there's a reason he took that many shots; it was necessary.

Going 14/31 is not good for any team.

I'm done with you.

I'm so disappointed. You have no idea how much that harms me. LOL

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Whoa whoa.

No.

The 2014 team was the team that beat the super team. And that Spurs team was absolutely elite.

No excuses need to be made for 2007 Cavs losing to the Spurs. That was one of the weaker Finals rosters of the last 30 years.

@Albuquerque Rams calls anything he disagrees with "excuses" LOL.

He takes his MJ really personally.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

07 Cavs were almost surely the weakest Finals representative in the last 25 years.

That is one true statement you have made.

And they made it because of LeBron

No other fucking reason

 

[MAGA2024]

You lied, Tommy, by saying "not one single teammate improved his scoring numbers with Lebron" and I checked only 3 and all 3 did.

You not understanding how to interpret the content in the link does not = me lying... and WTF is Tommy???

 

[Jordan23]

Goats don’t flop, fake injuries, take games off, get swept multiple times in the finals, cry every time there is a foul call, walks off court with time left in the game, disappears in 4th quarters and so forth.

 

[MAGA2024]

If MJ is so much above all others, should be easy to lay out the case. They never feel like they have to make a case, it’s silly

I'll make the case (for MJ as the undisputed GOAT):

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary Performances
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

This is just off the top of my head (there's obviously more, much more)... but even with just that, there is no other player who comes close to matching Jordan's Total Package of dominance, let alone surpass it.

 

[MAGA2024]

07 Cavs were almost surely the weakest Finals representative in the last 25 years.

That is one true statement you have made.

Again... facts don't lie. I bring facts... that you don't understand the context of the link I referenced is on you.

 

[MAGA2024]

And they made it because of LeBron

No other fucking reason

Finishing runner-up is not the stuff of GOATS, especially when you get swept... and if we're going to reward LeBron for getting TO the Finals (in a weak Conference with not much help around him) we must also hold it against him for laying an egg IN the Finals.

Jordan (like James in 07) lost early in his career to much more talented "teams"; however win OR lose MJ was always dominating, and aside from maybe 2-3 series throughout his entire career he was always the best player on the floor on either team.

LeBron not so much.

 

[rmilia1]

The thing I've always found intriguing about baskeyball fandom is it's the only team sport where people think ( almost always ) that the guys they grew up watching played in the toughest era ever

No one says that about football or hockey. And not even really baseball ( which loves is older players more than anyone )

Sure there are people who maybe enjoyed watching football more in 1988 than they si now but no one thinks thinks the 88 Redskins would beat the 24 Eagles

But for whatever reason every hoops fan thinks the era they feel in love with the game is actually the best ever. Kind of weird.

 

[tlance]

I'll make the case (for MJ as the undisputed GOAT):

GOAT level Offense
GOAT level Defense
GOAT level Winner
GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics
GOAT level Awards/Accolades
GOAT level Skills
GOAT level Athleticism
GOAT level Clutch
GOAT level Iconic/Legendary Performances
GOAT level Impact (on the sport)
Zero weakness/flaws in his game
Never lost to a Lower Seed
Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included)

This is just off the top of my head (there's obviously more, much more)... but even with just that, there is no other player who comes close to matching Jordan's Total Package of dominance, let alone surpass it.

Yeah, all facts here.

Ok dude