teams in the KC race this off season

[Sharkinva]

Your first point could also be read as, "you don't believe things without first evidence they're the truth."

Sooo...yeah. you really got me there.

I mean obviously a QB who can do everything is better than a QB who cant. Not that that QB ever has or will exist but actively disliking an additional skill set is...weird.

I will say though that I have always preferred my QBs to make multiple reads.

Not sure why my takes on QBs are off the plantation. Far as I can tell I'm one of the few posters on here who is consistent about what I want and the things that will and wont earn praise and criticism from me. Can I say the same about you?

Definition of INJURY-PRONE

I have nothing against additional skill sets. How ever.. stick with me here. Most of the QBs with this additional skill set, also tend to fall into the Injury prone category. Aside from Newton,name me one of these additional skill set guys that has not been injured multiple times... mostly because of there playing style which is said named additional skill set.

So at the end of the day, I prefer a QB who IF he ends up injured it is that bad lick you speak of, and not more so a byproduct of his playing style. Was never a fan of Vick, Akili Smith, RG3, Watson, McNabb and a host of other mobile QBs because I expected them to be injured based on playing style.


I was a fan of Doug Williams, and at least initially Jason Campbell.... because they were QBs, not running backs that could throw.

And yes I threw that out there to stave off the whole you just dont like black QBs shark.... which Im sure some one thinks even if they aren't going to say it.

 

[ehb5]

Or from an outside/in position it looks that way. In the case of Bridgewater, didn't injury serve as the basis for them to move on? How is it dumb or as someone else stated, "giving up" on a player if the reason for such a move began with injury?

In the case of Cousins, yeah, that's dumb, but why? Might I suggest that Bruce Allen is telling us that he has no confidence in his own ability to build a defense that doesn't put massive amounts of pressure on its own offense, that in turn, renders Kirk, to a definition that he cannot meet?

Taylor is a continuation of that unique type of player that has pro level skills, but requires an investment from the organization that he works for hiring coaches who have the ability to design offenses that meet those skills and not the other way around. I am not saying that QB's like Taylor cannot adapt their game to meet the demands of conventional offenses, but that too requires patience and other commitments from higher ups.

Finally, since he's been mentioned in this thread, McCarron, who is almost the exact TYPE of player that Kirk is can be inserted into any like offense as we have here and the ONLY difference will be the name on the back of the jersey. Will he produce accordingly? Well, yes and no because that depends upon so much else just as it does with Kirk. The only difference is, McCarron, right now, has a much shorter growth requirement to reach Kirk's current level of production. One good season or less, in this (J. Gruden's offensive system) should do it.

I think the injury has less to do with it than Keenum. Regardless, Bridgewater is still a young QB with promise. It's comical that the same people who would stand on the table for early 2015 Cousins think that Bridgewater is a lost cause. Talk about telling on yourself. Yikes.

I think we overstate the degree to which Tyrod requires a "gimmick" offense. He' been a productive nfl qb for a couple years with several coaching staffs. That's a copout. I also think if any half decent OC or HC should be able to adjust the little bit that tyrod would need to not just help him get by but thrive.

McCarron is a 5th round pick with 4 years in the league who can't overtake a starter who already isn' good enough to get it done. He has barely played, not really looked good when he's played and will need to be paid. McCarron is a terrible idea.

 

[ehb5]

Definition of INJURY-PRONE

I have nothing against additional skill sets. How ever.. stick with me here. Most of the QBs with this additional skill set, also tend to fall into the Injury prone category. Aside from Newton,name me one of these additional skill set guys that has not been injured multiple times... mostly because of there playing style which is said named additional skill set.

So at the end of the day, I prefer a QB who IF he ends up injured it is that bad lick you speak of, and not more so a byproduct of his playing style. Was never a fan of Vick, Akili Smith, RG3, Watson, McNabb and a host of other mobile QBs because I expected them to be injured based on playing style.


I was a fan of Doug Williams, and at least initially Jason Campbell.... because they were QBs, not running backs that could throw.

And yes I threw that out there to stave off the whole you just dont like black QBs shark.... which Im sure some one thinks even if they aren't going to say it.

A definition? Cool? Some people have been hurt a lot. Whats your point?

Wilson. Rodgers - hes been hurt a couple times but not while running. I think Kap hurt his arm but ibelieve that was a throwing thing. Not to mention, you do realize most QBs get hurt at some point right?

 

[Stymietee]

I think the injury has less to do with it than Keenum. Regardless, Bridgewater is still a young QB with promise. It's comical that the same people who would stand on the table for early 2015 Cousins think that Bridgewater is a lost cause. Talk about telling on yourself. Yikes.

I think we overstate the degree to which Tyrod requires a "gimmick" offense. He' been a productive nfl qb for a couple years with several coaching staffs. That's a copout. I also think if any half decent OC or HC should be able to adjust the little bit that tyrod would need to not just help him get by but thrive.

McCarron is a 5th round pick with 4 years in the league who can't overtake a starter who already isn' good enough to get it done. He has barely played, not really looked good when he's played and will need to be paid. McCarron is a terrible idea.

That is an interesting observation about Bridgewater, I happen to agree that he would be a fairly nice replacement if Kirk goes.


I don't believe that Tyrod needs any sort of gimmick offense to prosper in this league, in fact he hasn't to this point. What I do believe is it is going to take a bit more patience with mobile QB's who come into the NFL. It's no different than anything else in life that has to be first unlearned. That takes some time, and while the argument seems to be that there is no time based upon draft position, why draft them at all? These young men are extremely talented as evidenced by their willingness to learn how to function at the college level. That talent does not disappear simply because they were drafted into the NFL. They can learn that game as well.

McCarron? We all have opinions on him, ours are polar opposites. Oh well!!

 

[Sharkinva]

A definition? Cool? Some people have been hurt a lot. Whats your point?

Wilson. Rodgers - hes been hurt a couple times but not while running. I think Kap hurt his arm but ibelieve that was a throwing thing. Not to mention, you do realize most QBs get hurt at some point right?

Glad you brought up both Wilson and Rogers. While almost every QB ends p injured at one time or another. I love that you totally ignore playing style. Wilson and Rogers both LOOK to pass more so than take off and run, its a last resort for them. And as such, while they have been injured, they have managed to stay healthy alot more than the Vicks, McNabbs and the like. IM not against a QB being ABLE to run, IM against a QB that looks to do it. Hell Brees is a mobile QB and he CAN run.. but his first instinct, even out of the pocket is to get the ball out of his hands. Same for Rogers, Wilson and stick with me here.. .Wentz.

 

[Stymietee]

Glad you brought up both Wilson and Rogers. While almost every QB ends p injured at one time or another. I love that you totally ignore playing style. Wilson and Rogers both LOOK to pass more so than take off and run, its a last resort for them. And as such, while they have been injured, they have managed to stay healthy alot more than the Vicks, McNabbs and the like. IM not against a QB being ABLE to run, IM against a QB that looks to do it. Hell Brees is a mobile QB and he CAN run.. but his first instinct, even out of the pocket is to get the ball out of his hands. Same for Rogers, Wilson and stick with me here.. .Wentz.

Interesting since this ^^^^^^^ was and remains the reason why I have advocated patience when drafting a college level "running" QB. Run as the first, second or third option is a learned thing, same as staying in the pocket and run as a last resort. It is a very sad commentary on the NFL that they actually waste these talented young men for selfish reasons, instead of exercising a little bit of patience.

 

[Sharkinva]

Interesting since this ^^^^^^^ was and remains the reason why I have advocated patience when drafting a college level "running" QB. Run as the first, second or third option is a learned thing, same as staying in the pocket and run as a last resort. It is a very sad commentary on the NFL that they actually waste these talented young men for selfish reasons, instead of exercising a little bit of patience.

Or maybe just stop trying to force a square peg into a round hole?? If the NFL starts running a college style offense then maybe these guys will work out. But right now the quickest way to have me completely against a QB pick is to say, he has the ability to be what Vick was supposed to be.

No thanks.. I will pass. I would take Thiesman over Vick any day and twice on Sunday.

 

[Stymietee]

hes been very impressive thus far,better than i though. HOwever Kirk is a franchise qb

If you don't mind my asking, what's your definition of a "Franchise" QB?

 

[Sharkinva]

If you don't mind my asking, what's your definition of a "Franchise" QB?

Can I play??

A franchise QB is

A QB that has actually shown the ability to be productive the majority of the time irrespective of the talent (or lack there of) that you happen to put around him. He can still move the ball with or without his star pass catchers. And more often than not he puts his team in a position to win.

Bonus answer.. An Elite QB does all of the above, AND has the ability to get those tuff wins even when the rest of the team shits the bed around him.

 

[Stymietee]

Or maybe just stop trying to force a square peg into a round hole?? If the NFL starts running a college style offense then maybe these guys will work out. But right now the quickest way to have me completely against a QB pick is to say, he has the ability to be what Vick was supposed to be.

No thanks.. I will pass. I would take Thiesman over Vick any day and twice on Sunday.

Either way, it's still on the NFL. We aren't the ones rating then drafting these guys, they are! When they do, it's always the young guy who's failed, rarely if ever the people who drafted him, didn't properly exercise the need time and patience necessary to properly prepare the guy, then sit smugly back and blame the player for not succeeding. The worse part of all of it is, fans/followers/ supporters continue to go along with the corporate line.

 

[Stymietee]

Can I play??

A franchise QB is

A QB that has actually shown the ability to be productive the majority of the time irrespective of the talent (or lack there of) that you happen to put around him. He can still move the ball with or without his star pass catchers. And more often than not he puts his team in a position to win.

Bonus answer.. An Elite QB does all of the above, AND has the ability to get those tuff wins even when the rest of the team shits the bed around him.

Therein lies the rub,......lots of guys who can do that, but ultimately, success, is determined by wins and losses in the NFL. You'll no doubt call it moving the goalposts, and I'll understand why.

 

[Sharkinva]

Either way, it's still on the NFL. We aren't the ones rating then drafting these guys, they are! When they do, it's always the young guy who's failed, rarely if ever the people who drafted him, didn't properly exercise the need time and patience necessary to properly prepare the guy, then sit smugly back and blame the player for not succeeding. The worse part of all of it is, fans/followers/ supporters continue to go along with the corporate line.

Sorry man, but some of these guys simply dont want to learn. They want to stick with what has worked for them. And failing that they flame out. Now yes, the Front office should be held accountable for making the mistake in taking them in the first place. But you really think Jamarcus Russell failed because the Raiders were impatient??

 

[Sharkinva]

Therein lies the rub,......lots of guys who can do that, but ultimately, success, is determined by wins and losses in the NFL. You'll no doubt call it moving the goalposts, and I'll understand why.

Well maybe because alot of folks screamed Kirk wasnt a franchise QB, and now no one wants to throw out the well he isnt elite card because it would at least partially be accepting he is a franchise QB.

 

[Rowdy]

Definition of INJURY-PRONE

I have nothing against additional skill sets. How ever.. stick with me here. Most of the QBs with this additional skill set, also tend to fall into the Injury prone category. Aside from Newton,name me one of these additional skill set guys that has not been injured multiple times... mostly because of there playing style which is said named additional skill set.

So at the end of the day, I prefer a QB who IF he ends up injured it is that bad lick you speak of, and not more so a byproduct of his playing style. Was never a fan of Vick, Akili Smith, RG3, Watson, McNabb and a host of other mobile QBs because I expected them to be injured based on playing style.


I was a fan of Doug Williams, and at least initially Jason Campbell.... because they were QBs, not running backs that could throw.

And yes I threw that out there to stave off the whole you just dont like black QBs shark.... which Im sure some one thinks even if they aren't going to say it.

You can add wentz to that list as well. I said earlier in the season his style of play would get him hurt

 

[ehb5]

That is an interesting observation about Bridgewater, I happen to agree that he would be a fairly nice replacement if Kirk goes.


I don't believe that Tyrod needs any sort of gimmick offense to prosper in this league, in fact he hasn't to this point. What I do believe is it is going to take a bit more patience with mobile QB's who come into the NFL. It's no different than anything else in life that has to be first unlearned. That takes some time, and while the argument seems to be that there is no time based upon draft position, why draft them at all? These young men are extremely talented as evidenced by their willingness to learn how to function at the college level. That talent does not disappear simply because they were drafted into the NFL. They can learn that game as well.

McCarron? We all have opinions on him, ours are polar opposites. Oh well!!

I think my big problem with that is the assumption mobile QBs need to learn more than non mobile qbs. That may be true in some cases. In some cases its not.

 

[Stymietee]

Sorry man, but some of these guys simply dont want to learn. They want to stick with what has worked for them. And failing that they flame out. Now yes, the Front office should be held accountable for making the mistake in taking them in the first place. But you really think Jamarcus Russell failed because the Raiders were impatient??

How do we know this, it's NEVER been tried? Draft a guy in the first round (especially early) = instant starter. Ready or not, you da man new draftee!

To a degree I do blame the front office for J. Russell. To be sure dude was lazy as hell, but when you invest that much capital into your future, you had better be damned sure what you're getting.

 

[ehb5]

Glad you brought up both Wilson and Rogers. While almost every QB ends p injured at one time or another. I love that you totally ignore playing style. Wilson and Rogers both LOOK to pass more so than take off and run, its a last resort for them. And as such, while they have been injured, they have managed to stay healthy alot more than the Vicks, McNabbs and the like. IM not against a QB being ABLE to run, IM against a QB that looks to do it. Hell Brees is a mobile QB and he CAN run.. but his first instinct, even out of the pocket is to get the ball out of his hands. Same for Rogers, Wilson and stick with me here.. .Wentz.

Uhhh what half decent nfl qb doesn't look to pass first? And what prospective cousins replacement are we looking at that doesn't look to pass first?

I think you're taking QBs that fit your argument and then putting attributes to them.

 

[Sharkinva]

I think my big problem with that is the assumption mobile QBs need to learn more than non mobile qbs. That may be true in some cases. In some cases its not.

I think its more that they need to UNLEARN a bad habit. Vick, Smith, MCNabb and yes RG3, all thought.. if I get into trouble.. I can just outrun every one. That doesnt wok at the NFL level. The only reason it HAS worked for Cam is because he is as big as a fucking whale and for the most part CAN take the hits.

 

[Sharkinva]

How do we know this, it's NEVER been tried? Draft a guy in the first round (especially early) = instant starter. Ready or not, you da man new draftee!

To a degree I do blame the front office for J. Russell. To be sure dude was lazy as hell, but when you invest that much capital into your future, you had better be damned sure what you're getting.

And it never will be tried. You give up a top five pick for a guy, his ass SHOULD be ready to start. If not, he should not have been picked that high to begin with. Position be damned.

 

[ehb5]

Can I play??

A franchise QB is

A QB that has actually shown the ability to be productive the majority of the time irrespective of the talent (or lack there of) that you happen to put around him. He can still move the ball with or without his star pass catchers. And more often than not he puts his team in a position to win.

Bonus answer.. An Elite QB does all of the above, AND has the ability to get those tuff wins even when the rest of the team shits the bed around him.

For the record. Im totally cool with this definition. It' just that thats not how everybody views "franchise qb" so any discussion of the term becomes impossible.

Elite is a special level. There's 2 maybe 3 of those guys around right now.