Team Turnover

[calsnowskier]

Everyone here - Please, for the love of God, stop talking about Brown and Peguero like they are assured of Major League Glory and a spot on the All-Star team.

Neither of these guys is even remotely close to playing center field for the San Francisco Giants. The team will consider itself lucky if either guy makes a September call-up - - September 2013. Neither guy is going to be in SF next season and neither will be the starting CF the year after either.

Andres Torres is playing his way off this team lately and Aaron Rowand is only here because his monstrosity of a contract prevents him from being traded, so the Giants have no legitimate CF and leadoff guy next season. But saying either Single-A guy is poised to take their rightful spot with the big club is just crazy.

Let them earn their way to the show.

I will sit here patiently waiting for you to point out where ANYONE said either of these guys are all-stars.

waiting...

patiently...

crickets...

Now. Here is your pill. Take it.

 

[CameronFrye]

I will sit here patiently waiting for you to point out where ANYONE said either of these guys are all-stars.

waiting...

patiently...

crickets...

Now. Here is your pill. Take it.

Cal - I will admit that I overreacted, but you also have to admit that thinking either one of these guys has any shot at starting in CF and being successful next season is just as ridiculous.

Now take your pill.

I am not saying that neither one has potential, I am merely saying that expecting not only to see either one in SF in 2012, but to expect them to be able to hold down an everyday job all year is absurd. Players just don't start one season at Single-A and end up in the majors the next.*

If the Giants are really high on either of these two guys, they'll do the smart thing and let them progress naturally and not force them into a hole in their big league club because they have no other internal options to fill the void.



















*Brandon Crawford does not count. Dude spent 3 full seasons bouncing from rookie ball to Low a to Single-A to Double-A then back down to Single-A before getting the call to SF.

 

[msgkings322]

Cal - I will admit that I overreacted, but you also have to admit that thinking either one of these guys has any shot at starting in CF and being successful next season is just as ridiculous.

Now take your pill.

I am not saying that neither one has potential, I am merely saying that expecting not only to see either one in SF in 2012, but to expect them to be able to hold down an everyday job all year is absurd. Players just don't start one season at Single-A and end up in the majors the next.*

If the Giants are really high on either of these two guys, they'll do the smart thing and let them progress naturally and not force them into a hole in their big league club because they have no other internal options to fill the void.




*Brandon Crawford does not count. Dude spent 3 full seasons bouncing from rookie ball to Low a to Single-A to Double-A then back down to Single-A before getting the call to SF.

Since I kind of started the Brown/Peguero meme in this thread, let me chime in, Cameron, by saying I said in TWO years (2013) not next year we might see Brown in CF, Peguero in left. I also said unless we get a FA of some kind.


Boy, the Giants suckitude at the plate is really making us edgy.

 

[calsnowskier]

Cal - I will admit that I overreacted, but you also have to admit that thinking either one of these guys has any shot at starting in CF and being successful next season is just as ridiculous.

Now take your pill.

I am not saying that neither one has potential, I am merely saying that expecting not only to see either one in SF in 2012, but to expect them to be able to hold down an everyday job all year is absurd. Players just don't start one season at Single-A and end up in the majors the next.*

If the Giants are really high on either of these two guys, they'll do the smart thing and let them progress naturally and not force them into a hole in their big league club because they have no other internal options to fill the void.




*Brandon Crawford does not count. Dude spent 3 full seasons bouncing from rookie ball to Low a to Single-A to Double-A then back down to Single-A before getting the call to SF.

Longshot? Sure.

Out of the question? Nope.

Brown is a top MLB prospect who was drafted as a senior in college. Not an underclassman or a HS kid or a Latin Dandy. The fact that the G's did not advance him tells me that they feel he needs more seasoning, regardless of numbers. He should get an invite to ST, and will be given, I feel, a Belt-shot at the starting CF job.

Peguera is probably the more likely of the two. He is actually in Richmond, not San Jose, and has been doing quite well there. He has been in the system for a while now (he was a Latin Dandy) and seems to be ahead of Brown in line for a MLB job.

Ultimately, you are probably right. These guys will probably start in the minors, and we will look out-of-house for a CFer. I am just ALWAYS hesitant to look OOH for critical pieces because we have not done so well in that regard in the past (RoRo, BZ).

I think Crisp is likely the best fit, all around. But will he still cost us 8M+?? He is making 5.75M this year, and has had a good enough run to possibly be an A fa (I have no idea if he is or is not). Do we want to give up a 1st rounder, AND pay him 8M+?

Maybe the Giants do make a run at Beltran and try to ink him to a 2 year deal, but I think that may run 2/32 or so, and that is only if he is willing to sign a 2 year deal. I would suspect the fo would be hesitant to go longer than that with him, especially with the price tags coming due with Timmeh, Cain, Posey, Panda, Wilson, etc...

 

[calsnowskier]

Since I kind of started the Brown/Peguero meme in this thread, let me chime in, Cameron, by saying I said in TWO years (2013) not next year we might see Brown in CF, Peguero in left. I also said unless we get a FA of some kind.


Boy, the Giants suckitude at the plate is really making us edgy.

This.

I enjoy a bit of sniping from time to time, but I think I went a bit too snipe-ish on my response due the recent slide...

Rep.

 

[gp956]

Cal - I will admit that I overreacted, but you also have to admit that thinking either one of these guys has any shot at starting in CF and being successful next season is just as ridiculous.

Now take your pill.

I am not saying that neither one has potential, I am merely saying that expecting not only to see either one in SF in 2012, but to expect them to be able to hold down an everyday job all year is absurd. Players just don't start one season at Single-A and end up in the majors the next.*

If the Giants are really high on either of these two guys, they'll do the smart thing and let them progress naturally and not force them into a hole in their big league club because they have no other internal options to fill the void.

*Brandon Crawford does not count. Dude spent 3 full seasons bouncing from rookie ball to Low a to Single-A to Double-A then back down to Single-A before getting the call to SF.

Pablo Sandoval did. Brandon Belt had a shot, and arguably should be starting over Huff. Bryce Harper will. Buster Posey, Will Clark......it happens often enough not to be dismissed out of hand. That said, Cal did say either of them being up in 2012 was a reach. Reading comprehension is essential around here.

On the other hand, if Brown was going to be anything other than a September call up in 2012, you would think he would have been promoted to AA by now.

 

[gp956]

Longshot? Sure.

Out of the question? Nope.

Brown is a top MLB prospect who was drafted as a senior in college. Not an underclassman or a HS kid or a Latin Dandy. The fact that the G's did not advance him tells me that they feel he needs more seasoning, regardless of numbers. He should get an invite to ST, and will be given, I feel, a Belt-shot at the starting CF job.

Peguera is probably the more likely of the two. He is actually in Richmond, not San Jose, and has been doing quite well there. He has been in the system for a while now (he was a Latin Dandy) and seems to be ahead of Brown in line for a MLB job.

Ultimately, you are probably right. These guys will probably start in the minors, and we will look out-of-house for a CFer. I am just ALWAYS hesitant to look OOH for critical pieces because we have not done so well in that regard in the past (RoRo, BZ).

I think Crisp is likely the best fit, all around. But will he still cost us 8M+?? He is making 5.75M this year, and has had a good enough run to possibly be an A fa (I have no idea if he is or is not). Do we want to give up a 1st rounder, AND pay him 8M+?

Maybe the Giants do make a run at Beltran and try to ink him to a 2 year deal, but I think that may run 2/32 or so, and that is only if he is willing to sign a 2 year deal. I would suspect the fo would be hesitant to go longer than that with him, especially with the price tags coming due with Timmeh, Cain, Posey, Panda, Wilson, etc...

Do you find it worrisome that he is playing RF in Richmond, and not CF. And the guy manning CF is an organizational filler.

And, BTW, the best CF candidate for 2012 should be Nate. His bat plays there much better than in RF.

 

[msgkings322]

This.

I enjoy a bit of sniping from time to time, but I think I went a bit too snipe-ish on my response due the recent slide...

Rep.

 

[filosofy29]

Like msg alluded to, the recent skid along with no trolls to act as lightning rods are probably the main culprits to the frustration. I think our "upbringing" (for lack of a better term) from the ESPN and various other boards doesn't help either and still has us on high alert for stupid posts and overly optimistic ideas. This board has a much higher collective IQ (I know, I know, I'm the one who brings down the average ) than most message boards I've seen/posted on/read.

Bottom line, the only cure for this is not cowbell.....it's torturous victories.

 

[calsnowskier]

Like msg alluded to, the recent skid along with no trolls to act as lightning rods are probably the main culprits to the frustration. I think our "upbringing" (for lack of a better term) from the ESPN and various other boards doesn't help either and still has us on high alert for stupid posts and overly optimistic ideas. This board has a much higher collective IQ (I know, I know, I'm the one who brings down the average ) than most message boards I've seen/posted on/read.

Bottom line, the only cure for this is not cowbell.....it's torturous victories.

I know you are obviously lower than my 144, but are you also saying you are lower than tz's 99?

 

[Robotech]

Guys, relax, we will turn this around tonight. We're taking the next two. Beltran will come around eventually. He's too good not to.

 

[calsnowskier]

Do you find it worrisome that he is playing RF in Richmond, and not CF. And the guy manning CF is an organizational filler.

And, BTW, the best CF candidate for 2012 should be Nate. His bat plays there much better than in RF.

I am completely at a loss as to how they do defense in the minors. When Perez was drafted, I never thought of him as anything other than a corner OFer. Then they played him for an entire year at 2B, then completely abandoned that. Now he is playing CF over other, more legit prospects.

I can not explain it. Trying to salvage something out of Perez, maybe?

 

[filosofy29]

I know you are obviously lower than my 144, but are you also saying you are lower than tz's 99?

lol, I don't know what you wanted to do more with the above post.....boast about your IQ or slight tzill. I'm gonna guess around 50/50.



But to answer your question, my IQ is the square root of 2. At least I'm guessing since I'm so irrational....

 

[gp956]

I am completely at a loss as to how they do defense in the minors. When Perez was drafted, I never thought of him as anything other than a corner OFer. Then they played him for an entire year at 2B, then completely abandoned that. Now he is playing CF over other, more legit prospects.

I can not explain it. Trying to salvage something out of Perez, maybe?

Yeah, I have no idea. Maybe that's worth trying to ask Bobby Evans. I wonder if he responds to emails?

 

[CameronFrye]

Pablo Sandoval did. Brandon Belt had a shot, and arguably should be starting over Huff. Bryce Harper will. Buster Posey, Will Clark......it happens often enough not to be dismissed out of hand. That said, Cal did say either of them being up in 2012 was a reach. Reading comprehension is essential around here.

On the other hand, if Brown was going to be anything other than a September call up in 2012, you would think he would have been promoted to AA by now.

First, I never singled out Cal in my post. I never said that Cal should stop saying it. I said that anyone on this board who thinks that either has a shot to be the starting CF in 2012 should relax. Cal responded to my post and suddenly the thread was about me calling out Cal. That was never my intention. I apologize for any confusion there.

As for your statements about player making the jump:

- Sandoval did not. He went from Salem-Kizer (2005) to Augusta (2006) to San Jose (2007) to San Jose and Connecticut (2008) to SF. He made the jump after 4 years in the minors and he moved from Double-A to the bigs. After 2 years in low-level pro ball and 1.5 years in San Jose, he spent a half season at Connecticut before going to the pros the year after. That would be akin to Brown playing in SJ until June next season and then going to Double-A before making the bigs in 2013.

- Brandon Belt played in all three levels of the minors last season, so no, he didn't.

- Buster Posey played a a half season in SJ and then 3 months in Fresno during his first full year in pro ball. He then spent 3 more months in Fresno the second year before making the jump to the bigs.

- Bryce Harper is currently playing in Double-A. He will likely make the bigs next season, but that's no guarantee that he'll stick. We can assume he will because of all the hype, but as of right now, he has a .732 OPS in 29 games in Double-A. We can all agree that there is a huge jump in the quality of the pitcher from Double-A to the pros, so thinking this kid is going to be guaranteed 20- bombs and 85 RBIs next season with the Nats is not a given.

- Finally, Franky Peguero has been in the Giants chain for 5 years, bouncing between instructional leagues and the low minors. He SHOULD be successful at Double-A right now. I don't see that translating into a jump to the bigs for two more years because his numbers in Double-A are not overly impressive, but I could be wrong.

And Will Clark is the exception to the rule. I know there are others out there who went from Single-A to the pros, but by and large, players do not make that jump successfully.

 

[gp956]

Guys, relax, we will turn this around tonight. We're taking the next two. Beltran will come around eventually. He's too good not to.

My own theory of baseball winning probability projected that exact outcome.

 

[calsnowskier]

lol, I don't know what you wanted to do more with the above post.....boast about your IQ or slight tzill. I'm gonna guess around 50/50.



But to answer your question, my IQ is the square root of 2. At least I'm guessing since I'm so irrational....

Cutting tz is like a nice, cold beer in front of the TV after a hard day's work.

Just makes me say "aaaaahhhhhh..."

 

[gp956]

First, I never singled out Cal in my post. I never said that Cal should stop saying it. I said that anyone on this board who thinks that either has a shot to be the starting CF in 2012 should relax. Cal responded to my post and suddenly the thread was about me calling out Cal. That was never my intention. I apologize for any confusion there.

As for your statements about player making the jump:

- Sandoval did not. He went from Salem-Kizer (2005) to Augusta (2006) to San Jose (2007) to San Jose and Connecticut (2008) to SF. He made the jump after 4 years in the minors and he moved from Double-A to the bigs. After 2 years in low-level pro ball and 1.5 years in San Jose, he spent a half season at Connecticut before going to the pros the year after. That would be akin to Brown playing in SJ until June next season and then going to Double-A before making the bigs in 2013.

- Brandon Belt played in all three levels of the minors last season, so no, he didn't.

- Buster Posey played a a half season in SJ and then 3 months in Fresno during his first full year in pro ball. He then spent 3 more months in Fresno the second year before making the jump to the bigs.

- Bryce Harper is currently playing in Double-A. He will likely make the bigs next season, but that's no guarantee that he'll stick. We can assume he will because of all the hype, but as of right now, he has a .732 OPS in 29 games in Double-A. We can all agree that there is a huge jump in the quality of the pitcher from Double-A to the pros, so thinking this kid is going to be guaranteed 20- bombs and 85 RBIs next season with the Nats is not a given.

- Finally, Franky Peguero has been in the Giants chain for 5 years, bouncing between instructional leagues and the low minors. He SHOULD be successful at Double-A right now. I don't see that translating into a jump to the bigs for two more years because his numbers in Double-A are not overly impressive, but I could be wrong.

And Will Clark is the exception to the rule. I know there are others out there who went from Single-A to the pros, but by and large, players do not make that jump successfully.

The salient point is being in A+ and making the majors during the next year. I think everyone commenting on the possibility realized each of those players would need to make the jump to AA before taking the step to the majors. That may be one of those unstated assumptions that is understood by most who are commenting.

Not sure why you need to make the distinction about being in the org for a number of years. We usually treat college experience as equivalent. So that's a distinction that I think does not really exist in reality - or, at least, not worth serious consideration as a distinguishing factor.

 

[calsnowskier]

The salient point is being in A+ and making the majors during the next year. I think everyone commenting on the possibility realized each of those players would need to make the jump to AA before taking the step to the majors. That may be one of those unstated assumptions that is understood by most who are commenting.

Not sure why you need to make the distinction about being in the org for a number of years. We usually treat college experience as equivalent. So that's a distinction that I think does not really exists in reality - or, at least, not worth serious consideration as a distinguishing factor.

Agreed.

Panik and Brown entering the system after their senior year in college is not the same as Peguero, Joseph, Wheeler, Villalona, Jones, etc entering the system as a HS player or a Latin Dandy.

If it takes Brown or Panik 6 years to make the bigs, that is a bust. If it takes Peguero or Jones 6 years to make the bigs, that is OK.

 

[gp956]

Agreed.

Panik and Brown entering the system after their senior year in college is not the same as Peguero, Joseph, Wheeler, Villalona, Jones, etc entering the system as a HS player or a Latin Dandy.

If it takes Brown or Panik 6 years to make the bigs, that is a bust. If it takes Peguero or Jones 6 years to make the bigs, that is OK.

I agree with your agreement.