So let's talk 2021 draft

[returnofjakedog]

But you disagree that he will get it? As a future HOFer is he not worth it?

I'm not sure what his contract will be. As a POTENTIAL future HOF player (he isn't nearly there yet), he could easily command the $15 million. But with the cap decrease and the fact that we could hold his rights for longer at less might sway the negotiatons a bit. We will see.

The cap decrease this year, and even potentially next year could have an impact on all player negotiations. Every team and player will be affected and we are yet to see exactly how and how much.

 

[MrS]

Its so hard to squeeze an opinion out of people here.

I think the nfl will find a way to keep the cap from going down, they could do this by flattening it in future years to make up the difference.

And im 99% certain adams gets his 15 million.

 

[returnofjakedog]

But you disagree that he will get it? As a future HOFer is he not worth it?

I think it is a possibilty that he could get that as a POTENTIAL future HOF player, but it isn't a given yet.

.....but do you acknowledge that there are some factors that could drive that price a bit lower? Cap decline this year, and potentially next year also. Seahawks having tag rights etc.

Also remember that he is under contract next year at $9.8 million under his 5th year option so any new contract would be a raise.
Let's say that the Seahawks and Adams agree to a 4 year/$56 million with $24 million guaranteed this offseason (I'm just throwing these numbers out there for speculation). That would be $14.5 million a year, but only $6 million a year guaranteed. You can backload it a bit so Adams would get a $3 million a year raise this coming year, the next two years at about $14 million, then the final year at $16.5 million or so. In that last year you could renegotiate to bring the cap hit down, or cut/trade him with a $6 million cap hit. Again, these numbers are only for demonstration purposes.

My point is that there are options to be able to mitigate expenses. You know this.

What it comes down to is that you disagree with Adams' value. It seems to me that PC and JS feel it is higher than you do. There are valid reasons on both sides of this debate. I have acknowledged all of these reasons. I still disagree with you and the reasons I have are as solid and valid as yours. Only time will tell what will happen. I just feel PC and JS have had enough success for me to give them the benefit of the doubt. They know way more about the game, the Seahawks, their personal, and how to use them (that last bit is key to Adams' potential effectiveness) than any of us here

 

[returnofjakedog]

Its so hard to squeeze an opinion out of people here.

I think the nfl will find a way to keep the cap from going down, they could do this by flattening it in future years to make up the difference.

And im 99% certain adams gets his 15 million.

No, it isn't hard to "squeeze an opinion out if people here". My opinion on this subject has been sufficiently stated many times

You just want people to change their minds based on your opinion. I am not doing that in this instance because there are plenty of debatable points that support both sides of the discussion.

 

[MrS]

I think it is a possibilty that he could get that as a POTENTIAL future HOF player, but it isn't a given yet.

.....but do you acknowledge that there are some factors that could drive that price a bit lower? Cap decline this year, and potentially next year also. Seahawks having tag rights etc.

It would be unprecedented for the top players on the market to take pay cuts as far as averages go.

Also remember that he is under contract next year at $9.8 million under his 5th year option so any new contract would be a raise.
Let's say that the Seahawks and Adams agree to a 4 year/$56 million with $24 million guaranteed this offseason (I'm just throwing these numbers out there for speculation). That would be $14.5 million a year, but only $6 million a year guaranteed. You can backload it a bit so Adams would get a $3 million a year raise this coming year, the next two years at about $14 million, then the final year at $16.5 million or so. In that last year you could renegotiate to bring the cap hit down, or cut/trade him with a $6 million cap hit. Again, these numbers are only for demonstration purposes.

Its not really about actual pay, its about the average per year. Maybe he will accept 14.5, but i really doubt it.

My point is that there are options to be able to mitigate expenses. You know this.

If he is willing to play ball. 99% of players are not.

What it comes down to is that you disagree with Adams' value. It seems to me that PC and JS feel it is higher than you do. There are valid reasons on both sides of this debate. I have acknowledged all of these reasons. I still disagree with you and the reasons I have are as solid and valid as yours. Only time will tell what will happen.

yep, only time will tell. And i am putting my money on ultimately it not being worth it. Where are you putting yours?

I just feel PC and JS have had enough success for me to give them the benefit of the doubt.

you know how i feel, and ultimately i believe when this trade doesnt pan out their time should be up.

They know way more about the game, the Seahawks, their personal, and how to use them (that last bit is key to Adams' potential effectiveness) than any of us here

Im not as a fan required to put my brain in a jar and accept everything they do is gold. They have made tons of mistakes and without wilson i honestly believe they both would have been canned a long time ago.

No, it isn't hard to "squeeze an opinion out if people here". My opinion on this subject has been sufficiently stated many times

You just want people to change their minds based on your opinion. I am not doing that in this instance because there are plenty of debatable points that support both sides of the discussion.

Itd just be nice if people would admit to being wrong for once.

But if adams flames out and the team suffers, nobody will step up and admit they were wrong. Just like nobody was willing to admit bevell was a shit coordinator even after he was fired.

 

[returnofjakedog]

It would be unprecedented for the top players on the market to take pay cuts as far as averages go.

Its not really about actual pay, its about the average per year. Maybe he will accept 14.5, but i really doubt it.

If he is willing to play ball. 99% of players are not.

yep, only time will tell. And i am putting my money on ultimately it not being worth it. Where are you putting yours?

you know how i feel, and ultimately i believe when this trade doesnt pan out their time should be up.

Im not as a fan required to put my brain in a jar and accept everything they do is gold. They have made tons of mistakes and without wilson i honestly believe they both would have been canned a long time ago.



Itd just be nice if people would admit to being wrong for once.

But if adams flames out and the team suffers, nobody will step up and admit they were wrong. Just like nobody was willing to admit bevell was a shit coordinator even after he was fired.

I'm not going over all of this again. We've done it a bunch of times now and there is no reason to repeat myself at this point.

As far as people "It'd be nice if people would admit to being wrong for once", that is kinda the entire point. None of this has happened yet so how the fuck am I wrong about anything yet?? All we BOTH have at this point is speculation.
I have provided plenty of evidence to support my stance (as have you) but I sure as hell am not stating I'm right or wrong on this. I guess the question is why are you so insistent that you are fully 100% correct when you admit in the same thread that we don't know the outcome yet?

Again, apologies if MY OPINION doesn't correspond fully with YOUR OPINION. At least I'm willing to admit the possibility that future events could prove me to be incorrect. The weird thing is that you and 12 seem to take other people not kneeling to your views as people being wholly wrong, but you sure don't hold yourself to the same standard.

 

[Screamin12th]

Except I never said that. I said that worst case scenerio we have the possibility to use the franchise tag to keep him under contract for up to 3 years at a total of $33-34 million.
I provided links and you still don't acknowledge you are 100% wrong on that easily provable point.

I fully understand your other points.
*I understand that he isn't big for his position. So yes, how his body holds up is a concern.
*I understand he WANTS $15 million a year. I acknowledged that. But, again, that was never my point.

*I addressed your points on his coverage. He had some trouble with 2 obvious blown assignments early in the year but it can be attributed to no training camp, time of trade.
You post an quote from early in the season when he only had 1 PD, but don't acknowledge the obvious improvements that came as the year. After he came back from injury he had 5 additional PD and was by all advanced metrics an average pass defender. Talk to Brock and Saulk or any of the other local "talking heads" if you have an issue with thst because they ALL echo that sentiment.

Also you insist that Adams isn't worth 2 firsts but don't acknowledge my draft chart value numbers posts because.......they don't validate your opinion???

So basically I disagree with you, debate you, acknowledge that your points do have validity but I still disagree with you, and you go on a passive-aggressive rant where you say I have "Bloated self worth" and am "Blinded and ignorant!........because we disagree. You also bring up cancel culture for some non-existent reason like you're some sort of pathetic victim........because, again, I disagree with you?? Somehow your opinion on this highly debatable subject is more valid than mine?

Sorry I agree more with Seahawk's management than you opinion. You can have your own opinion and I respect that. But you can stuff your insults up your ass.

His improvement came because he got more playing "TIME". He had only 6 games before that post and ended up with 12 i think? he improved because of increased chances not really increase in play quality and how teams were forcing the ball to his man/assignment forcing him into coverage. his other 2 PD were int's or i should say should have been and i know for a FACT that on one of those pass break-ups the team ( Rams ) ended up scoring. The INT would have stopped them from scoring. About the Tag numbers thats all good i only brought that up because if they want to tag Adams in 2022 thats the salary of the top 5 Safeties in the game for 2021 ( was about the same for 2020 )and thats the price we have to beat to sign him. Also what i clipped was straight from OTC, same place you got your info.

Draft chart value doesn't do shit for an actual player. This isn't about having a top 10 pick this is about having a player. Picks i am sorry to say in most cases are valued higher than players when you are talking about say a top 10 pick and you know that, and when you got what people think is a sure fire franchise QB and possible future hall of fame candidate sitting there for the taking that pick becomes even more valuable.

In my Opinion, which is 100% right because it's my opinion LMAO which also makes it 100% wrong to you because it's my opinion not yours, he is not worth the price we paid, we could have got Ramsey for that price and he makes this team better more so than Adams does. I remember a lot of you thinking the Rams over paid for Ramsey and he was cheaper than Adams! Still 2 firsts and a 4th so extremely expensive. But one thing Ramsey does is shuts down his side of the field against the best WR in the league and looks the part as the best CB in the game every week. Adams looks good and is a beast in the box but you take him away from the LoS and he is a little better than average. Those hands couldn't catch a cold.

 

[Screamin12th]

Also lets just put this out there, Pete and John were desperate for pass rush help and they saw a chance to improve that area with a uniquely talented player. One that was looked at as the best safety in the game. His play last year was outstanding for the type of player he is but when you take away his LoS plays and focus on what most safeties do he is above average Safety with below average hands and average cover ability. Teams will scheme to take Adams away from the LoS and force him into coverage and we saw them doing just that at the end of the season. This is his weak spot and they ( opposing teams ) will game plan to put him into his worst area of his game. Simple as that. I would give up a 1st and 2nd and say a 6th for Adams and McDougald but two firsts not a chance.

Now this doesn't mean i don't think Adams is good or even great, no one here is saying he sucks ass we have stated MANY times over he is a great player just not as great when you take in the lost capital and value of those draft picks. Or are you forgetting the Hawks dont have a first round pick until 2023! Then you talk about oh he wont demand top money... WTF! we sold the House for him he has ALL the power in negotiations. The Hawks almost can not AFFORD to let him walk almost 100% they can't afford it. Hawks all ready showed their hand and that is they went all in and Adams holds all the cards.

 

[returnofjakedog]

I have already addressed every point you have made here. So we can agree to have our own opinions and if they don't match up it, then c'est la vie.
Think you can handle it without personal insults next time?

 

[MrS]

As far as people "It'd be nice if people would admit to being wrong for once", that is kinda the entire point. None of this has happened yet so how the fuck am I wrong about anything yet?? All we BOTH have at this point is speculation.

But things will play out and there will be winners and losers. Will the people who love adams admit they were wrong if it turns out the trade was a bust? My money is on no.

Again, apologies if MY OPINION doesn't correspond fully with YOUR OPINION. At least I'm willing to admit the possibility that future events could prove me to be incorrect. The weird thing is that you and 12 seem to take other people not kneeling to your views as people being wholly wrong, but you sure don't hold yourself to the same standard.

My issue isnt with being right or wrong. My issue is with the sycophantic attitude most people on this board have and the stubborness in refusing to admit when the team makes bad decisions that hurt the team

 

[returnofjakedog]

But things will play out and there will be winners and losers. Will the people who love adams admit they were wrong if it turns out the trade was a bust? My money is on no.

My issue isnt with being right or wrong. My issue is with the sycophantic attitude most people on this board have and the stubborness in refusing to admit when the team makes bad decisions that hurt the team

Of course I'd admit that. I've acknowledged both successes and failures from game one for this team. But I don't see how you can call the trade a failure or a success at this point. It is far too early to make that judgement.

You are notoriously negative and very stubborn (as many folks are stubborn, including myself). I'd rather error on the side of a little optimism than constantly automatically assuming that the worst of nearly every situation.

 

[MrS]

Im perfectly happy when they make good choices like picking metcalf, but im going to call out the bad when they happen like penny in the 1st.

 

[Anointed One]

 

[Screamin12th]

I have already addressed every point you have made here. So we can agree to have our own opinions and if they don't match up it, then c'est la vie.
Think you can handle it without personal insults next time?

personal insults?

 

[returnofjakedog]

personal insults?

people all we have is eye test and production to go off so to assume your "reasoning" is the only correct one is arrogance and an extremely bloated self worth and assumed knowledge that you do not have. No ones opinion is bigger or better than anyone else's. Well unless you are part of the now in thing of cancel culture.

when people start spitting out opinions and then to themselves believing they are facts then you are just blinded and ignorant. open eyes look at it from every point of view and form your own opinion but always remember it's only an opinion and it's yours and not anyone else's so do not get defensive and just respect those opinions because their opinion holds as much weight as yours PERIOD. No if ands or buts about it.

You can claim you weren't referring to me but I was the only person directly referenced in this post (safety franchise tag prices discussion).

Whatever. Yeah I was pissed off at the time as I had just left the hospital where my 96 year old Aunt was unconcious on a ventilator after some asshole plowed into her at over 20 miles an hour as she was sitting parked in her car. So no, I wasn't in the mood for any bullshit.

Yeah. This discussion got too stupid. Apologies to the rest of the board. But regardless the lecture wasn't necessary or productive, and came off as insulting. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Screamin12th]

You can claim you weren't referring to me but I was the only person directly referenced in this post (safety franchise tag prices discussion).

Whatever. Yeah I was pissed off at the time as I had just left the hospital where my 96 year old Aunt was unconcious on a ventilator after some asshole plowed into her at over 20 miles an hour as she was sitting parked in her car. So no, I wasn't in the mood for any bullshit.

Yeah. This discussion got too stupid. Apologies to the rest of the board. But regardless the lecture wasn't necessary or productive, and came off as insulting. I'll leave it at that.

lol that's not an insult but what ever, that was a comment about how people believe their opinion is worth more than others and that their opinion is the only right one and anything that goes against it is wrong. But if you want to take it as an insult aimed at you then by all means go for it. lol don't be so fragile and assuming.

you keep talking to us like "you are wrong" "you have no clue" when in fact we are not wrong and we may not be right but we have our opinions and our opinion carries as much weight as yours. So deal with it because your opinion wont change ours.

 

[Anointed One]

It would be unprecedented for the top players on the market to take pay cuts as far as averages go.

J. Clowney says, "hi"...

What was the amount he was asking for? How much did he end up with?

 

[returnofjakedog]

lol that's not an insult but what ever, that was a comment about how people believe their opinion is worth more than others and that their opinion is the only right one and anything that goes against it is wrong. But if you want to take it as an insult aimed at you then by all means go for it. lol don't be so fragile and assuming.

you keep talking to us like "you are wrong" "you have no clue" when in fact we are not wrong and we may not be right but we have our opinions and our opinion carries as much weight as yours. So deal with it because your opinion wont change ours.

Now you are just making stuff up. I never talked down to you. I never even implied "you are wrong" or "you have no clue" (never said ANYTHING of the sort). I openly debated valid points. Hilarious that you tell not to jump to assumptions but that is exactly what you did.

As far as your "fragile and assuming" crap, well, no I guess you can't go forward without personal insults.

Too bad that after years of civil, informative, and interesting conversations with you over the years that it has come down to this, and it is all based on a bunch of bullshit because I don't think the Adams trade was necessarily bad. It is always a bummer when Seahawk's fans fight over such issues.

Go Seahawks! Hopefully Adams will prove you wrong. Until then, peace out and stay "classy"!

 

[MrS]

J. Clowney says, "hi"...

What was the amount he was asking for? How much did he end up with?

Ya that was a weird case, it didnt have anything to do with the salary cap though it had a lot more to do with his sack #s.

 

[Screamin12th]

Now you are just making stuff up. I never talked down to you. I never even implied "you are wrong" or "you have no clue" (never said ANYTHING of the sort). I openly debated valid points. Hilarious that you tell not to jump to assumptions but that is exactly what you did.

As far as your "fragile and assuming" crap, well, no I guess you can't go forward without personal insults.

Too bad that after years of civil, informative, and interesting conversations with you over the years that it has come down to this, and it is all based on a bunch of bullshit because I don't think the Adams trade was necessarily bad. It is always a bummer when Seahawk's fans fight over such issues.

Go Seahawks! Hopefully Adams will prove you wrong. Until then, peace out and stay "classy"!

I am being civil and if you don't see what i mean by you being fragile and assuming then maybe in this second post of yours you will see it. I am not attacking you but you seem to take every opinion that doesn't match up with yours about Adams as an attack in some way or form 78% of the time. You know where i got that number from? 78%? thats the completion percentage against Adams in pass coverage. I only really bring that up because of two things. One, Tre Flowers, he has a completion percentage against at 72.9% with a lower QBR and two, in todays NFL teams are passing the ball more than ever. Adams play in that area of the game is not on par for the draft capital and value they gave up. I hope it improves but we have all been here before hoping someone improves just to be left wanting...damn hawks!

I freaking love Adams and i am glad he is a Seahawk and i also believe he can do a LOT better than what we saw in the passing game. I mean if he doesn't then this was one of the worst trades ever for the Hawks. Imagine he gets burnt all the time in 2021 letting QB's hit almost 80% of passes when he is the closes man and his sack numbers go way down because teams force him into pass coverage, then he leaves because he isn't worth resigning for the money he wants. i mean would you franchise him after a real bad season? i don't know but you are forced to because of the capital given up Ouch.


there are risks in everything i know but man when you look at his production before coming here he was top 3 maybe even the top safety in the game but his play in coverage has always just been around average but lights out every place else.
Yeah i see no way right now Adams is worth the cost but i will always have undying hope he becomes worthy of all that capital. Till my last breath i am and will always be a Hawks fan and that means my hope is boundless. I am just lucky that my loyalty doesn't cloud my vision though. Not an insult, there is nothing wrong with being slightly bias or having even more hope than others. Just as long as you are able to take that step back and look at both sides clearly and see what others mean. Like me i know 100% what you are saying and i see it the same but i also see the bad part that was well below where it should be of someone of his caliber. Lets hope he improves and that it was only the plethora of injuries he had. Something i also fear he will struggle with his whole career.