So let's talk 2021 draft

[MrS]

Pocic had a nice season but he is still a little weak for a center and just doesn't have the strength to compete against top flight talent like Aaron Donald. Pocic is a solid player but should be the swing man on this Oline filling in at Guard/Center when injuries pop up.

Been saying this since we drafted pocic, dude is just weak weak weak. Too bad he cant play RT.

TE in my eyes is not a need, they have Dissly and he made it the whole season but was lightly used ( to bad ). Did Dissly regress or was he more "gunshy" ? or was it the Staff just protecting him way to much?

he just didnt produce and relying on an injury prone guy is not a good idea.

Hollister and Parkinson are fine and i really don't understand some of you hating on Hollister, he is a playmaker.

Hollister is ok, but for a guy listed at 6'4 he plays like he is 5'4. I want a big TE that can fight for the ball over the middle and we should be able to get one in the 4th round. Too bad we also gave away our 3rd for adams...

 

[blstoker]

he just didnt produce and relying on an injury prone guy is not a good idea.

Hollister is ok, but for a guy listed at 6'4 he plays like he is 5'4. I want a big TE that can fight for the ball over the middle and we should be able to get one in the 4th round. Too bad we also gave away our 3rd for adams..

I felt they played Dissly similarly to Carson to see if they could get him through the year and that he’ll move back to being a bigger part of the offense. They also seem to like Parkinson a lot, even if he didn’t get much playing time this season.

 

[MrS]

Valid points, i just dont trust players with injury histories like dissly.

 

[Anointed One]

Mark Ingram is going to be cut by the Ravens... He may be an interesting option at the RB position for the Hawks next year... Also, the market value for Chris Carson is right around 7. million a year according to Spotrac... If that's the case, that's too much for an oft injured RB... We could probably get Ingram for around 3-4 million...

Rost's Seahawks Takeaways: Veteran RB Seattle could target hits market

The Seahawks could be in the market for a new RB and in her weekly takeaways, Stacy Rost says one to keep an eye on is Mark Ingram.

sports.mynorthwest.com

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Mark Ingram is going to be cut by the Ravens... He may be an interesting option at the RB position for the Hawks next year... Also, the market value for Chris Carson is right around 7. million a year according to Spotrac... If that's the case, that's too much for an oft injured RB... We could probably get Ingram for around 3-4 million...

Rost's Seahawks Takeaways: Veteran RB Seattle could target hits market

The Seahawks could be in the market for a new RB and in her weekly takeaways, Stacy Rost says one to keep an eye on is Mark Ingram.

sports.mynorthwest.com

No thanks. Ingram has hit that time when a player noticeably drop off. RB requires youth. Sign Carson or draft a RB or give Penny one last chance.

 

[Anointed One]

No thanks. Ingram has hit that time when a player noticeably drop off. RB requires youth. Sign Carson or draft a RB or give Penny one last chance.

I would want us to still draft a RB and give Penny the chance.. Always good to have a veteran in the fold....

 

[MrS]

I think the draft is our best option, penny is done and i dont think putting 5 mil + on an older rb is a good idea.

 

[returnofjakedog]

painful knowing we don't have a pick in the first round till 2023. I love Adams and he is a nice asset to the team but i think we can all agree after a full season with him that he was not worth 2 firsts. Some of you thought he was better than Kam!?! No, he is different, Kam was the bigger better tackler and Kam was also better in coverage and in the run game. Adams is a beast Rushing the QB but Had Kam got more shots to do it he very well could have been a beast also ( and i have zero doubts Kam would have been great at it ). Adams is still young and i fully expect him to get better but as of right now, he isn't worth the draft capital we gave up for him. Also his body isn't built like Kams so his shelf life might be tiny with the way he throws his body around so recklessly.

Totally disagree with you on Adam's value. So you'd rather have 2 picks in the 25 to 30 range than an uber athlete who is a hybrid Safety/LB/DE? You'd rather have a Ifedi, McDowell, Penny, Collier type than a Safety with HOF potential who sat the NFL DB record for sacks last year?

Plus he isn't bad in coverage despite your implications that he is somehow poor in that area (there were a couple of out of position errors that I attribute more to a lack of training camp and time integrating with the team). I also disagree that Kam was significantly better as a tackler or in the run game (Snugs also stated that he isn't a good tackler, which seems a bit strange as I have seen no evidence of this. His fundamentals seem fine).

Plus your insinuation that Kam could have been a better pass rusher than Adams if given the opportunity is ridiculous. Kam did not posess the quick twitch ability to be able to work his way past a OL in the manner that Adams does.

Kam was better in TE coverage mostly due his size, and his big hit ability. He was a great player in his own right but truthfully his weaknesses were somewhat hidden playing next to Earl, who had perhaps the best range we've ever seen

All of you Adams haters should be prepared for a long term run with him. All indications is that he will be a foundational piece that we are going to build the D around. He should be here and highly productive for some years. The only thing that might derail that is injuries.

 

[MrS]

Totally disagree with you on Adam's value. So you'd rather have 2 picks in the 25 to 30 range than an uber athlete who is a hybrid Safety/LB/DE? You'd rather have a Ifedi, McDowell, Penny, Collier type than a Safety with HOF potential who sat the NFL DB record for sacks last year?

Id rather have two potential starters on the OL, yes.

Plus he isn't bad in coverage despite your implications that he is somehow poor in that area (there were a couple of out of position errors that I attribute more to a lack of training camp and time integrating with the team). I also disagree that Kam was significantly better as a tackler or in the run game (Snugs also stated that he isn't a good tackler, which seems a bit strange as I have seen no evidence of this. His fundamentals seem fine).

a future HOF player? Im not seeing it, not even a little. This is why i say he is overrated, bigly. He is a good player, a worthy starter, but he is NOT worth 2 firsts and saying future HOFer at this point is ridiculous.

Plus your insinuation that Kam could have been a better pass rusher than Adams if given the opportunity is ridiculous. Kam did not posess the quick twitch ability to be able to work his way past a OL in the manner that Adams does.

I think he has a point, we dont know what kam would have been able to do as a pass rusher.

Kam was better in TE coverage mostly due his size, and his big hit ability. He was a great player in his own right but truthfully his weaknesses were somewhat hidden playing next to Earl, who had perhaps the best range we've ever seen

Seems to me adams is in between both kam and earl amd not nearly as good as either of them in either area. A good all around safety, but extremely overrated.

All of you Adams haters should be prepared for a long term run with him. All indications is that he will be a foundational piece that we are going to build the D around. He should be here and highly productive for some years. The only thing that might derail that is injuries.

The team painted themselves into a corner on that one.

 

[blstoker]

a future HOF player? Im not seeing it

Aww, crap. Snugs and I agree on something!!!! maybe if he continues his career and ends with 50+ sacks, the HoF could change its historical trend, but pass defense is highly instrumental in their voting. 29 is the lowest career int number for a safety in the HoF. Adams has 2 in 4 years. He's had a good start to his career, but he's not a shoo in for HoF. It's yet to be seen if he's Troy Polamalu or if he's Bob Sanders.

 

[returnofjakedog]

2 potential starters on the OL? Not worth 2 late first round picks?

I've walked through our draft history and the inconsistencies of hitting on picks. This isn't a new issue nor is it specific to the Seahawks. The odds are that you will maybe get 1 average starter and a bust from those 2 picks, and that isn't even accounting for the time it typically takes to develop.

Also, saying that Adams is somewhere inbetween Earl and Kam is strange because he is a completely different type of player. That is like me saying that Earl and Kam both sucked because neither were able to do what Kenny Easley was capable of.

Again, Adams is a hybrid Safety/LB/DE so he is hard to evaluate. Everyone seems to want to compare him to Kam but how about you compare him to a pass rushing LB or DE instead (Leo position)? He certainly compares well if anyone wants to go there. His ability to play multiple positions could really be an unlocked positive in an even more impactful manner with an offseason to adjust the scheme and actually have some training camp time.

Many of the "experts" seem to feel he is on a HOF path, so there is that. I know that their opinions are fallible but I do trust the judgement of ex players and coaches over any of the people here, including myself. He still has a long way to go but extrapolating his career out based on what has happened so far would most certainly put him in HOF consideration.

Also consider our draft strategy. JS and PC seem to prefer using our high picks to gain value in other ways, such as trading back or trading for established talent. In the last 8 years we have only had 4 first round picks, and those 4 were two at #27, a #29, and a #31. On the basis that a average draft contains 15 to 20 players first tier talent then we are already outside of that. The 2nd tier is inevitably deeper, and that is the tier we usually start picking from. Add to it the uncertainty of this years draft due to the lack of games, pro days, and combines, and you are left with a pick that is even further devalued.

I guess we will see what happens. But we do appear to be building around Adams so we will have some years to evaluate.

 

[returnofjakedog]

Aww, crap. Snugs and I agree on something!!!! maybe if he continues his career and ends with 50+ sacks, the HoF could change its historical trend, but pass defense is highly instrumental in their voting. 29 is the lowest career int number for a safety in the HoF. Adams has 2 in 4 years. He's had a good start to his career, but he's not a shoo in for HoF. It's yet to be seen if he's Troy Polamalu or if he's Bob Sanders.

True. But the fact that he isn't being evaluated as a pure safety has a lot to do with it. There isn't a single comparision out there that works because of the hybrid type player that he is. Can agree on that point?

Besides, if he turns out to "only" be the equivalent value of Bob Sanders then he is easily worth 2 late first rounders. Sanders was a very good player. In fact I would say that Sander's career might have reached HOF consideration levels if not for injuries, which is the same concern I have for Adams.

 

[Screamin12th]

Totally disagree with you on Adam's value. So you'd rather have 2 picks in the 25 to 30 range than an uber athlete who is a hybrid Safety/LB/DE? You'd rather have a Ifedi, McDowell, Penny, Collier type than a Safety with HOF potential who sat the NFL DB record for sacks last year?

Plus he isn't bad in coverage despite your implications that he is somehow poor in that area (there were a couple of out of position errors that I attribute more to a lack of training camp and time integrating with the team). I also disagree that Kam was significantly better as a tackler or in the run game (Snugs also stated that he isn't a good tackler, which seems a bit strange as I have seen no evidence of this. His fundamentals seem fine).

Plus your insinuation that Kam could have been a better pass rusher than Adams if given the opportunity is ridiculous. Kam did not posess the quick twitch ability to be able to work his way past a OL in the manner that Adams does.

Kam was better in TE coverage mostly due his size, and his big hit ability. He was a great player in his own right but truthfully his weaknesses were somewhat hidden playing next to Earl, who had perhaps the best range we've ever seen

All of you Adams haters should be prepared for a long term run with him. All indications is that he will be a foundational piece that we are going to build the D around. He should be here and highly productive for some years. The only thing that might derail that is injuries.

I am just saying he is a talented player but he is no Kam and Kam is a better fit for this defense. Adams is suspect in coverage, his hands are made from stones also lol. He doesn't wrap and hit which we saw burn us a handful of times in the 2020 season. He likes to throw his body around hard and those type players get injured. Adams is a stud i did not say he wasn't but he is not worth the Draft capital we gave up for him. The price was safety Bradley McDougald, a first-round and third-round pick in 2021, and a 2022 first-round pick. Thats to steep. the first and third with McDougald is more like it and more on point for the value, and in my eyes the Jets still get the better end of it just not the landslide they did get.

 

[blstoker]

True. But the fact that he isn't being evaluated as a pure safety has a lot to do with it. There isn't a single comparision out there that works because of the hybrid type player that he is. Can agree on that point?

That's truly the issue. He's listed as a SS, and you aren't changing how some people evaluate him based solely on that. As a strong safety he's not putting up consisted pass coverage numbers that are impressive. He does play more like a 4th LB, but as a LB he's putting up good outside LB numbers for a 3/4 OLB, but still not HoF numbers.

Really, other than the aggressive blitzing numbers, Adams has been a SS. They haven't re-invented the wheel with him, they've just been more aggressive thus far. 9.5 sacks is massively impressive for a safety, but is it really something that can be counted on every year to get him to the HoF, or just a really good season.

 

[returnofjakedog]

I am just saying he is a talented player but he is no Kam and Kam is a better fit for this defense. Adams is suspect in coverage, his hands are made from stones also lol. He doesn't wrap and hit which we saw burn us a handful of times in the 2020 season. He likes to throw his body around hard and those type players get injured. Adams is a stud i did not say he wasn't but he is not worth the Draft capital we gave up for him. The price was safety Bradley McDougald, a first-round and third-round pick in 2021, and a 2022 first-round pick. Thats to steep. the first and third with McDougald is more like it and more on point for the value, and in my eyes the Jets still get the better end of it just not the landslide they did get.

His coverage is better than you think. They have gone over it on the Seattle sports radio in great depth and the numbers support that he is average in coverage, not a negative. He had 2 moments that people tend to form the poor coverage narrative but those were early on and can be at least somewhat attributed to lack of training camp and experience in the system since he was essentially just thrown into the fire. In fact he had some very good coverage plays down the stretch.

Also, you forgot the 4th rounder in return from the Jets. A Seahawks' 3rd for a Jets' 4th is probably between 5 and 10 spots. Not a huge return but it shouldn't be left out, particularly if you are going to bring up the 3rd.

You state that "he doesn't wrap up and hit". His tackling form is something that Snugs brought up also. The problem is that I don't know where this narrative is coming from. I haven't seen it. Please provide some specifics on this if you have them.

The old adage "A bird in hand (Adams) is worth 2 in the bush (draft picks)" is very much in play here. As I mentioned, low first rounders are hit and miss. History shows us that the 2 low first round picks would most likely pan out to be an average starter and a bust. This is particularly true in this year with the lack of a true college season, and combine style evaluations.

 

[Screamin12th]

His coverage is better than you think. They have gone over it on the Seattle sports radio in great depth and the numbers support that he is average in coverage, not a negative. He had 2 moments that people tend to form the poor coverage narrative but those were early on and can be at least somewhat attributed to lack of training camp and experience in the system since he was essentially just thrown into the fire. In fact he had some very good coverage plays down the stretch.

Also, you forgot the 4th rounder in return from the Jets. A Seahawks' 3rd for a Jets' 4th is probably between 5 and 10 spots. Not a huge return but it shouldn't be left out, particularly if you are going to bring up the 3rd.

You state that "he doesn't wrap up and hit". His tackling form is something that Snugs brought up also. The problem is that I don't know where this narrative is coming from. I haven't seen it. Please provide some specifics on this if you have them.

The old adage "A bird in hand (Adams) is worth 2 in the bush (draft picks)" is very much in play here. As I mentioned, low first rounders are hit and miss. History shows us that the 2 low first round picks would most likely pan out to be an average starter and a bust. This is particularly true in this year with the lack of a true college season, and combine style evaluations.

The no wrap tackling was on show almost every week what do you mean where does this come from? So let me ask you this. If the Eagles or Miami ect ect came to the Hawks and offered this years #1 next years #1 and this years #3 for our 4th and Adams and they also give us their Starting strong safety you would turn it down? i don't think so you would be very stupid to do so. Adams did not cover his cost and maybe he does next year as he is still under contract but his play as a "pass defender" was not on the scale it needs to be. This is not even a debate it really isn't he was abused in the passing game.

But like i stated in my very FIRST post about Adams he is young and is still learning and he very well could become "that" guy but his play THIS year he was not "That" guy. I would have a hard time giving up what the Hawks gave up for Adams for Kam and he was a better player. Adams could very well pass Kam as his career goes along but right now he is still looking up at Bam Bam.

 

[MrS]

2 potential starters on the OL? Not worth 2 late first round picks?

I've walked through our draft history and the inconsistencies of hitting on picks. This isn't a new issue nor is it specific to the Seahawks. The odds are that you will maybe get 1 average starter and a bust from those 2 picks, and that isn't even accounting for the time it typically takes to develop.

Our pick this year is #23, thats a decent pick, next years pick might be even higher who knows.

And youre right, this FO has been horrible in the first round (and in every round lately) but even you or i could draft an OL in round 1 that could POTENTIALLY start on this team. They just refuse to pick BPA.

Also, saying that Adams is somewhere inbetween Earl and Kam is strange because he is a completely different type of player. That is like me saying that Earl and Kam both sucked because neither were able to do what Kenny Easley was capable of.

Youre right, i shouldnt have said in between. Adams is worse at every skill than kam and earl, except pass rush. Which brings us back to the fact that we should have traded or signed an actual pass rusher.

Many of the "experts" seem to feel he is on a HOF path, so there is that. I know that their opinions are fallible but I do trust the judgement of ex players and coaches over any of the people here, including myself. He still has a long way to go but extrapolating his career out based on what has happened so far would most certainly put him in HOF consideration.

who says this? Ive only heard it here

Also consider our draft strategy. JS and PC seem to prefer using our high picks to gain value in other ways, such as trading back or trading for established talent.

what value have we gotten from all those trades? Seems very little.

In the last 8 years we have only had 4 first round picks, and those 4 were two at #27, a #29, and a #31. On the basis that a average draft contains 15 to 20 players first tier talent then we are already outside of that. The 2nd tier is inevitably deeper, and that is the tier we usually start picking from. Add to it the uncertainty of this years draft due to the lack of games, pro days, and combines, and you are left with a pick that is even further devalued.

You cant build a team hoping to get lucky drafting in the later rounds. You need elite players and that is whats killing this team, we have 0 elite players on defense. 1st round picks give you the best opportunity for elite players period.

 

[returnofjakedog]

The no wrap tackling was on show almost every week what do you mean where does this come from? So let me ask you this. If the Eagles or Miami ect ect came to the Hawks and offered this years #1 next years #1 and this years #3 for our 4th and Adams and they also give us their Starting strong safety you would turn it down? i don't think so you would be very stupid to do so. Adams did not cover his cost and maybe he does next year as he is still under contract but his play as a "pass defender" was not on the scale it needs to be. This is not even a debate it really isn't he was abused in the passing game.

But like i stated in my very FIRST post about Adams he is young and is still learning and he very well could become "that" guy but his play THIS year he was not "That" guy. I would have a hard time giving up what the Hawks gave up for Adams for Kam and he was a better player. Adams could very well pass Kam as his career goes along but right now he is still looking up at Bam Bam.

Respectfully, can you back up his lack of tackling skills with anything? The only place I found with Missed Tackle stats is Pro Football Focus and that stat was locked unless I want to pay. Until proven otherwise I am not sold on his being a poor tackler narrative.

Adams still has room to improve but I think you are slightly over-rating Kam. He was a great player but not a HOF player and I would say that Adams is overall at the same level in coverage as Kam ever was, and possibly even better. The difference is Kam was most adapt at covering the TE, usually from near the line while Adams is smaller and much quicker. He can fill a zone d area better.
Adams had 3 passes defensed against the Rams. So he capable.

One thing that we haven't discussed is his attitude and leadership skills. He is already looked to as a leader in the locker room, and his intensity and will to win brings an edge to the D. He should be our next Bobby Wagner from a leadership standpoint for the next 7 or 8 years if things go as planned.

 

[returnofjakedog]

Our pick this year is #23, thats a decent pick, next years pick might be even higher who knows.

And youre right, this FO has been horrible in the first round (and in every round lately) but even you or i could draft an OL in round 1 that could POTENTIALLY start on this team. They just refuse to pick BPA.

Youre right, i shouldnt have said in between. Adams is worse at every skill than kam and earl, except pass rush. Which brings us back to the fact that we should have traded or signed an actual pass rusher.

who says this? Ive only heard it here

what value have we gotten from all those trades? Seems very little.

You cant build a team hoping to get lucky drafting in the later rounds. You need elite players and that is whats killing this team, we have 0 elite players on defense. 1st round picks give you the best opportunity for elite players period.

Again, the accepted wisdom is that your typical draft has a top tier of solid first rounders of 15 to 20 players deep. This year is thought to be on the thin side due to other factors. We haven't drafted in that range for years. If Adams was drafted this year he woukd be a top pick and certainly cost you more than two 1sts, even in the #23 range.

You are also right in that Adams is worse in many categories than Thomas and Kam were. But unfortunately for your comparision Thomas and Kam are 2 seperate players (but Kenny Easley was close to a hybrid of the two!). Adams is as effective in coverage as Kam, just in a different way. Adams is more capable of covering in space (such as a zone), while Kam matched up a bit better with TEs and such.

As to your questions:
*All the talking heads on national stations and radio discussed his early HOF track during the trade last year. Literally everyone. Here is an SI article from before last season that proposed him as a top-10 player in the entire NFL! (No, I personally don't think he is a top-10 overall player)

New York Jets safety Jamal Adams is a top 10 player in the NFL according to Colin Cowherd

Jamal Adams is a top 10 player in the NFL according to FoxSports personality Colin Cowherd.

www.si.com

*The value the Seahawks have received from trades is debatable but I would say that each trade needs to be evaluated individually, and that this regime's success speaks for itself (Please don't make me post the historic W/L numbers again).

I agree you need elite players. I disagree that we don't have them on D. Wagner is still elite, and so is Adams. I am hoping Dunlap can be a DL difference maker for a couple more years also.

Read this article. It speaks on Adams' leadership skills and value in the locker room. It is an aspect we haven't discussed about him. He has been reported to be a great locker room guy. It also has some great breakdowns of his stats.

Seahawks safety Jamal Adams: The most misunderstood DB in the NFL

Seahawks defensive back Jamal Adams is the most misunderstood player in today's game. Seahawks fans and analysts alike have thrown a ridiculous amount of s...

www.google.com

 

[Podunkparte]

Here's a 9 minute video of Adams highlights from this year. Plenty of wrap up tackles, some against some really elusive runners. I count 3 hard hits.