Russell Wilson

[PDay8810]

It's a shame when a real good player is on a team with other real good players. (gee...a sport where everyone is considered professional) If he's a QB then it's auto pilot when you win and your fault when you lose. Championships? Only because of the other talent assembled on the team. Everywhere you look, people in general are much smarter as a whole than 20/30 years ago yet pro football fans get dumber and dumber. Least from some of the statements made here, stick pointing and baiting posts excluded.

 

[Sgt Brutus]

Russell Wilson can throw the ball 70 yards in the air easily. He has a bigger arm than Andrew Luck. That is a fact that anyone who has ever witnessed the two warm-up will tell you. If you were to line up all NFL QBs and measure how far they can throw the ball normally and how far they can throw the ball with a wrist flick, Russ would be a top five QB in both and very well may be #1. Arm strength isn't everything when it comes to the better arm (see Russell, Jamarcus), but it is a big part and Russ has Luck beat.

And as for accuracy, the numbers speak for themselves. Russ has a completion percentage that is five points higher, despite the fact that over the course of his career, his passes have been for basically identical distances to Luck. Indeed, Russ leads his receivers better. This is probably why Russ has 7.9 YPA for his career, compared to 7.1 for Luck. In a typical set of three downs, Russell Wilson is averaging 2.5 more YPA. Not bad for a "game manager." And of course, we have the Interception numbers: Luck has thrown 43 interceptions to 26 for Russ. Adjusting for throws, Russ throws about 15-20% fewer interceptions, and he has done it playing in the best defensive division in football (by a lot) with a weak supporting cast., including receivers who drop a ton of passes. Of Russ' 26 career picks, at least ten of the have been tipped at the line or dropped by his receivers.

Lastly, just watch the two play. It's not even close. Look at the pass to win the NFC Championship game. Those are the passes Russ makes every week. He throws passes into traffic and completes it. Luck's "incredible" plays are always throwing it to TY Hilton when he is 15 yards clear of any defender. Russ doesn't have that luxury.

So Russell Wilson has a bigger arm and a more accurate arm. His passing stats are universally better when adjusted to the numbers of throws. I just don't understand how anyone could think Luck is a better passer than Russ. I actually think it is much easier to make an argument for Luck as a better rusher than Russ, but people don't want to do that ever. It's easier to keep stereotyping Pick #75, the game manager who was gonna be a career backup, then it is to deal with reality.

From every post I've seen you make on Wilson, you are HIGHLY biased.

Like you said arm strength isn't everything. Especially when you can't see over the line. You say he has a weak supporting cast but I can't remember the Colts having as strong of a run game. He's got the beast behind him, although I won't argue the Colts have better Wr's but you can't argue that it's harder when your offense is one dimensional. They know the Colts cant rush, thus the defense is sending the rushers downhill and playing coverage.

Watching the two play just from what I've seen I'd rather take Luck on my team then Russell. Again the eye test, you seem pretty damn biased. Nothing wrong with liking the guy.

Lastly I don't think RW is a game manager. He is easily a top 10 QB and I don't discredit any of his talent. I actually root for the guy. Love that he's from the Big10 and that he's undersized. Love that he was told he's too small and he's basically made those doubters fuck off. RW is a special type of guy mentally.


I have no reason to argue this further, just wanted to show where I was coming from and that I don't consider him a game manager.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Well at this point too early to tell on all of that. There is no telling what is going to happen with these two teams. The Seahawks when they pay Wilson top dollar could fall off as teams that pay QB's top dollar really do struggle to win the Super Bowl as they can't build the depth needed. At the same time maybe the Seahawks are in that perfect time where they could win a couple more in the next few years and really separate Wilson from Luck in championship pedigree. The NFL is just so hard to predict from season to season.

Going to have to disagree with the part about teams with that pay top dollar for QBs fall off. Every decent team that is playoff bound has a high paid QB.

 

[gohusk]

Luck won't be shit if he doesn't get pieces around him. RW has that stellar defense. Luck is the better QB/passer but Wilson has the better team and fits that team really well.

Also PM and TB played lots of H2H

What???? Before Graham came along there was maybe one guy that Wilson was throwing to that would make the roster on Indy. What targets that Wilson is throwing to in the Super Bowl would be an upgrade for the Colts?

 

[Sgt Brutus]

What???? Before Graham came along there was maybe one guy that Wilson was throwing to that would make the roster on Indy. What targets that Wilson is throwing to in the Super Bowl would be an upgrade for the Colts?

That run game tho

 

[Smart]

By the way, here were their career passing splits as I posted them in December:

Wilson's career splits:
Behind the Line: 221 (18.5%)
1-10: 551 (46.2%)
11-20: 260 (21.8%)
21-30: 91 (7.6%)
31-40: 41 (3.4%)
41+: 27 (2.3%)

Luck's career splits:
Behind Line: 297 (16.9%)
1-10: 815 (46.3%)
11-20: 442 (25.2%)
21-30: 122 (6.9%)
31-40: 54 (3.1%)
41+: 25 (1.4%)

Not very different, eh? Certainly not enough to explain their six point completion percentage differential.

it should bother everyone that luck is considered to be great when he isnt .. but he is the new nfl poster child so he has that going for him an all .. if he is soooooo good why hasent he been to a sb yet ?? luck is a good average QB peroid

I don't think the Super Bowl is the be-all, end-all, but it isn't like Luck is losing 45-24. These were his stats against the Patriots:

12-33, 126 Yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs. (45-7 loss).

Did we hear anything about Luck sucking? Was he a choker or anything like that? No. But two weeks later, Russ goes:

12-21, 247 Yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT. (28-24 loss). He does this, as I can't emphasize enough, WITHOUT THROWING A SINGLE PASS TO A DRAFTED WR and WITH A #1 WR who worked at Foot Locker. There were two atrocious drops, one of which stopped what was likely to be the SB-winning drive. And on the last play, his supposedly awful pick, he threw the ball to where his WR had position and he simply misplayed it. Somehow, this makes Russ not be clutch.

(PS: In Luck's rookie season, his numbers sucked but he was clutch. So Luck backers kept saying he was better because those game winning drives were proof of his greatness and his ability to rise to the moment. Well, now Russ, has 15 game winning drives to 12 for Luck. You don't hear Luck backers talk about game winning drives much anymore. I wonder why).

From every post I've seen you make on Wilson, you are HIGHLY biased.

Like you said arm strength isn't everything. Especially when you can't see over the line. You say he has a weak supporting cast but I can't remember the Colts having as strong of a run game. He's got the beast behind him, although I won't argue the Colts have better Wr's but you can't argue that it's harder when your offense is one dimensional. They know the Colts cant rush, thus the defense is sending the rushers downhill and playing coverage.

Watching the two play just from what I've seen I'd rather take Luck on my team then Russell. Again the eye test, you seem pretty damn biased. Nothing wrong with liking the guy.

Lastly I don't think RW is a game manager. He is easily a top 10 QB and I don't discredit any of his talent. I actually root for the guy. Love that he's from the Big10 and that he's undersized. Love that he was told he's too small and he's basically made those doubters fuck off. RW is a special type of guy mentally.


I have no reason to argue this further, just wanted to show where I was coming from and that I don't consider him a game manager.

Okay. It's the same old ad hominem arguments. I may be biased in the sense that I am more passionate about Russ because he went to Wisconsin and I saw his greatness coming. But my argument is never about pure passion. I use facts. And no Luck fans do because they simply don't support Luck. Wilson fans spend their times citing facts. Luck fans spend time trying to come up with excuses. And those excuses they can come up with are weak at best.

You can think Luck is better all you want. 31 GMs did on Draft Day (Schneider has said that he had the exact same grade for them, but that, yes, even the Seahawks total board had Luck higher). But they were wrong. There is subjective opinion and there is objective. It is my subjective opinion that Russell Wilson will always be better than Andrew Luck. It is your subjective opinion that Luck is better than Wilson. But it is an objective fact that Wilson has been better than Luck each of the last four seasons dating back to Wilson's time at Wisconsin.

It is also an objective fact that I was dismissed as "biased" for saying, on the day he was drafted, Russ would quarterback the Seahawks to a Super Bowl. And it as an objective fact that, supposed bias or not, I was right.

 

[DHoey]

That run game tho

You just said something about being one dimensional tho

 

[Smart]

That run game tho

As I've talked about at length, Marshawn Lynch had 4.0 YPC before Russell Wilson was drafted. At some point, people need to realize that Russell Wilson is the Seahawks running game. Lynch's success is due to the fact that the read-option and the threat of Russ running moves enough defenders away to buy time for Beast to get going.

 

[Sgt Brutus]

You just said something about being one dimensional tho

Yeah about the Colts

Hawks have run/pass game
Colts have pass game no run

 

[Sgt Brutus]

As I've talked about at length, Marshawn Lynch had 4.0 YPC before Russell Wilson was drafted. At some point, people need to realize that Russell Wilson is the Seahawks running game. Lynch's success is due to the fact that the read-option and the threat of Russ running moves enough defenders away to buy time for Beast to get going.

Im showing 4.2 ypc with 12 Td's on the ground. No doubt having a passing attack helped him out greatly but let's not act as if he isn't a good back! And it's way better than what Indy has

 

[Smart]

Im showing 4.2 ypc with 12 Td's on the ground. No doubt having a passing attack helped him out greatly but let's not act as if he isn't a good back! And it's way better than what Indy has

I meant in his career. But even with that, Lynch had 4.2 YPC and 7.6 YPR. In the last three years, he's had 4.7 YPC and 9.2 YPR. There's no doubt that his career has taken off since Russ got there.

 

[PDay8810]

Russell Wilson can throw the ball 70 yards in the air easily. He has a bigger arm than Andrew Luck. That is a fact that anyone who has ever witnessed the two warm-up will tell you. If you were to line up all NFL QBs and measure how far they can throw the ball normally and how far they can throw the ball with a wrist flick, Russ would be a top five QB in both and very well may be #1. Arm strength isn't everything when it comes to the better arm (see Russell, Jamarcus), but it is a big part and Russ has Luck beat.

And as for accuracy, the numbers speak for themselves. Russ has a completion percentage that is five points higher, despite the fact that over the course of his career, his passes have been for basically identical distances to Luck. Indeed, Russ leads his receivers better. This is probably why Russ has 7.9 YPA for his career, compared to 7.1 for Luck. In a typical set of three downs, Russell Wilson is averaging 2.5 more YPA. Not bad for a "game manager." And of course, we have the Interception numbers: Luck has thrown 43 interceptions to 26 for Russ. Adjusting for throws, Russ throws about 15-20% fewer interceptions, and he has done it playing in the best defensive division in football (by a lot) with a weak supporting cast., including receivers who drop a ton of passes. Of Russ' 26 career picks, at least ten of the have been tipped at the line or dropped by his receivers.

Lastly, just watch the two play. It's not even close. Look at the pass to win the NFC Championship game. Those are the passes Russ makes every week. He throws passes into traffic and completes it. Luck's "incredible" plays are always throwing it to TY Hilton when he is 15 yards clear of any defender. Russ doesn't have that luxury.

So Russell Wilson has a bigger arm and a more accurate arm. His passing stats are universally better when adjusted to the numbers of throws. I just don't understand how anyone could think Luck is a better passer than Russ. I actually think it is much easier to make an argument for Luck as a better rusher than Russ, but people don't want to do that ever. It's easier to keep stereotyping Pick #75, the game manager who was gonna be a career backup, then it is to deal with reality.

To each is own. Maybe you're right and maybe if we had that 70's TV Show where the QB competed in shorts throwing the different pass routes for points would show Wilson is greater. Can't remember the name of that show... Super Star Challenge or something like that. I couldn't say at this time who will have the better career. I think they both have been very good for the short time they've been in the league.

 

[cdumler7]

Going to have to disagree with the part about teams with that pay top dollar for QBs fall off. Every decent team that is playoff bound has a high paid QB.

I meant more for winning the Super Bowl. I think they showed that Peyton is the only QB of recent that made 15% or more of the salary cap and his team still won a Super Bowl. Yes teams with good QB's make the playoffs quite often but winning it all is the issue.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I meant more for winning the Super Bowl. I think they showed that Peyton is the only QB of recent that made 15% or more of the salary cap and his team still won a Super Bowl. Yes teams with good QB's make the playoffs quite often but winning it all is the issue.

Well who ever wins the SB will have a high priced QB, you can quibble about percentages if you like, I lean towards being successful at drafting more then anything as the key. Who hits on their draft choices among the better teams this last draft? That seems to me to be the most important factor to me.

 

[gohusk]

That run game tho

Which he's 40% of.

 

[gohusk]

As I've talked about at length, Marshawn Lynch had 4.0 YPC before Russell Wilson was drafted. At some point, people need to realize that Russell Wilson is the Seahawks running game. Lynch's success is due to the fact that the read-option and the threat of Russ running moves enough defenders away to buy time for Beast to get going.

Let's not go overboard here. Lynch is a flippin beast. He's one more solid season away from the HOF and is clearly #2 of his generation behind AP.

 

[cdumler7]

Well who ever wins the SB will have a high priced QB, you can quibble about percentages if you like, I lean towards being successful at drafting more then anything as the key. Who hits on their draft choices among the better teams this last draft? That seems to me to be the most important factor to me.

Just look at the stats. They are on my side that in the last 20 years only I think 1 QB making 15% or more has actually won the Super Bowl. Drafting is key but it takes also being able to build great depth through FA as well and that takes money. It is why come playoff time you see the teams with the best depth doing better than the teams with great QB's

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Just look at the stats. They are on my side that in the last 20 years only I think 1 QB making 15% or more has actually won the Super Bowl. Drafting is key but it takes also being able to build great depth through FA as well and that takes money. It is why come playoff time you see the teams with the best depth doing better than the teams with great QB's

Historical stats mean crap to me. Take the stat on how teams that won a SB in the cap age do the next year. Didn't look good did it? Yet the Seahawks were in the SB again and lost on a one yard miss que.

 

[Oldschool739]

I don't see the same as PM and TB between those 2, neither could match up to the old dogs in their prime so not even feasible at this point.....

 

[gohusk]

From every post I've seen you make on Wilson, you are HIGHLY biased.

Like you said arm strength isn't everything. Especially when you can't see over the line. You say he has a weak supporting cast but I can't remember the Colts having as strong of a run game. He's got the beast behind him, although I won't argue the Colts have better Wr's but you can't argue that it's harder when your offense is one dimensional. They know the Colts cant rush, thus the defense is sending the rushers downhill and playing coverage.

Watching the two play just from what I've seen I'd rather take Luck on my team then Russell. Again the eye test, you seem pretty damn biased. Nothing wrong with liking the guy.

Lastly I don't think RW is a game manager. He is easily a top 10 QB and I don't discredit any of his talent. I actually root for the guy. Love that he's from the Big10 and that he's undersized. Love that he was told he's too small and he's basically made those doubters fuck off. RW is a special type of guy mentally.


I have no reason to argue this further, just wanted to show where I was coming from and that I don't consider him a game manager.

Let's talk about the guys he's throwing to. Willson, Kearse, Baldwin, Richardson (who was starting to look good until he got injured), Percy Fucking Harvin, ... How about the o-line? You know, the one that's basically a revolving door with all the injuries?

I like our players. But if the Colts just wanted to straight up swap every thing besides Wilson and Lynch then I'd be into it. So spare me the whole "gee, he has so much to work with" line of BS because as far as playing his position he's had nothing but lemons. I like Kearse and Baldwin. But they aren't #1 threats. They're 2 solid #2 #3 option guys. And those two have been the staple of the receiving corp for the last two seasons.