"Projected" Lineup

[calsnowskier]

I'm sorry. Is it last year and you're talking about Panda? :p I'm not saying he will ever come close to the .823 OPS he put up in 2010, but if he takes some advice, I don't see .725 being out of the realm of possibility. That's still 4th OF status, but it's a darn sight better than .643. You're right that the "sophomore slump" moniker doesn't work here because of his age, but it certainly works as far as adjusting to pitchers that have adjusted to him (ie. throw him solely inside because he can't get that humungous club around). He used a lighter bat when he was batting right handed last year, so I don't think he is completely averse to change. It is certainly in his best interest.

Heath, are you comparing the possibility of a '09 Panda resurrection in '11 to a '10 Torres resurrection in '12?

I know you are better than that, so I must be reading it wrong.

 

[filosofy29]

Heath, are you comparing the possibility of a '09 Panda resurrection in '11 to a '10 Torres resurrection in '12?

I know you are better than that, so I must be reading it wrong.

I think he was just giving msg a hard time moreso than trying to make an apples to apples comparison. Then again, you have to have a sense of humor to pick up on that.....

 

[Heathbar012]

Heath, are you comparing the possibility of a '09 Panda resurrection in '11 to a '10 Torres resurrection in '12?

I know you are better than that, so I must be reading it wrong.

Nope. I was actually pointing out how quite different they are. However, just because those situations are completely different doesn't mean Torres can't make some adjustments and have better numbers than last season (it would be difficult for them to be much worse).

The main reason for bringing it up was to bust MSG's balls for his predictions that Panda would fall closer to the middle of his '09 and '10's stats (obviously, he was much closer to '09 than any of us expected, and without his wrist injury might have ended up better). I think Torres will fall right around the middle of his '10 and '11 numbers, but that is good enough for a 4th OF.

I was pointing out the irony that I'm taking a similar position with Torres' ability this off-season that MSG took with Panda last year. I hope we can all be pleasantly surprised again, but I doubt it.

 

[msgkings322]

Nope. I was actually pointing out how quite different they are. However, just because those situations are completely different doesn't mean Torres can't make some adjustments and have better numbers than last season (it would be difficult for them to be much worse).

The main reason for bringing it up was to bust MSG's balls for his predictions that Panda would fall closer to the middle of his '09 and '10's stats (obviously, he was much closer to '09 than any of us expected, and without his wrist injury might have ended up better). I think Torres will fall right around the middle of his '10 and '11 numbers, but that is good enough for a 4th OF.

I was pointing out the irony that I'm taking a similar position with Torres' ability this off-season that MSG took with Panda last year. I hope we can all be pleasantly surprised again, but I doubt it.

Yep, agree on all counts. We all spout our BS opinions. No one knows nuthin'. Least of all me.

 

[Mays-Fan]

The big question is: do you offer him arb? If so, he could get $2.5-3.0MM

The money question, indeed. My answer would depend on an evaluation which I personally am not in the position to make, but Sabes should be:

Was Torres indeed plagued by a nagging injury in 2011, and capable of returning to 2009-2010 form, or was he just lazy and content to sit on his first big contract? In either case, is he too old to recover? Is he willing to use a lighter bat from now on?

"Those are questions."

 

[tzill]

wait, you want Beltran in center?

:mmph:

Huh? No.

Beltran in LF, Melky in CF, Nate in RF. Late game, pull Beltran, Melky to LF, Andres to CF.

 

[sfsportsfan]

Huh? No.

Beltran in LF, Melky in CF, Nate in RF. Late game, pull Beltran, Melky to LF, Andres to CF.

woops. misread your post. my b.

 

[CameronFrye]

The money question, indeed. My answer would depend on an evaluation which I personally am not in the position to make, but Sabes should be:

Was Torres indeed plagued by a nagging injury in 2011, and capable of returning to 2009-2010 form, or was he just lazy and content to sit on his first big contract? In either case, is he too old to recover? Is he willing to use a lighter bat from now on?

"Those are questions."

I think the answer is neither. Torres in 2010 was on a hot streak and hit everything he saw. Pitchers didn't have a chance to adjust to him because he started off so hot that they could not find a hole.

He cooled off by late summer and the pitchers figured him out late in 2010. If you look at his stats, he fell off a cliff in August and September. He never recovered in the regular season and was unable to adjust to the adjustments that were being made to him. The NLDS continued his cold streak and then he caught fire again in the NLCS and the World Series, which was awesome. But I chalk that up to a combination of teams not doing their homework and Torres being part of an entire team that was hot at the right time. When there are guys on base constantly, guys get pitched to differently than they would if the bases are empty.

When 2011 started, Torres had not closed his holes and was not able to re-adjust to the pitchers. They exploited the holes in his swing and showed him for what he is - a talented and speedy defensive outfielder who is best suited as a 4th OF and late-inning defensive replacement.

I agree with many of you that if he used a lighter bat and bunted more, he would be a better hitter. He would become almost Brett Butler-esque. But Torres views himself as more of a guy who hits into the gaps, which he ain't.

 

[Heathbar012]

I think the answer is neither. Torres in 2010 was on a hot streak and hit everything he saw. Pitchers didn't have a chance to adjust to him because he started off so hot that they could not find a hole.

He cooled off by late summer and the pitchers figured him out late in 2010. If you look at his stats, he fell off a cliff in August and September. He never recovered in the regular season and was unable to adjust to the adjustments that were being made to him. The NLDS continued his cold streak and then he caught fire again in the NLCS and the World Series, which was awesome. But I chalk that up to a combination of teams not doing their homework and Torres being part of an entire team that was hot at the right time. When there are guys on base constantly, guys get pitched to differently than they would if the bases are empty.

When 2011 started, Torres had not closed his holes and was not able to re-adjust to the pitchers. They exploited the holes in his swing and showed him for what he is - a talented and speedy defensive outfielder who is best suited as a 4th OF and late-inning defensive replacement.

I agree with many of you that if he used a lighter bat and bunted more, he would be a better hitter. He would become almost Brett Butler-esque. But Torres views himself as more of a guy who hits into the gaps, which he ain't.

He is if teams don't do their homework! Put baseball back in the dark ages! Raise the mounds! Expand the field of play! No more video! No more scouts! No more stats! Hot dogs for a dollar! Beer for two! (didn't have you convinced til that last part, huh?)

 

[msgkings322]

He is if teams don't do their homework! Put baseball back in the dark ages! Raise the mounds! Expand the field of play! No more video! No more scouts! No more stats! Hot dogs for a dollar! Beer for two! (didn't have you convinced til that last part, huh?)

(keeping on the theme):

Sixteen teams! No DH! No playoffs! No minorities! No split-fingered fastball! No free agency!

(we could go on and on...)

 

[CameronFrye]

He is if teams don't do their homework! Put baseball back in the dark ages! Raise the mounds! Expand the field of play! No more video! No more scouts! No more stats! Hot dogs for a dollar! Beer for two! (didn't have you convinced til that last part, huh?)

LMAO. Well played.

I would seriously love to see Torres embrace his inner Butler. Once that traitor left for the Bums, he was dead to me, but I have to admit that while he was in SF, he embodied everything that I love about a center fielder. He was fast, got great jumps on the ball, had a tremendous (if oversized) glove, he could take pitches and get on base via the walk, he could drag bunt 20 hits per year and he knew how to steal a base.

Right now, Torres is all of those EXCEPT the parts related to hitting.

 

[Heathbar012]

LMAO. Well played.

I would seriously love to see Torres embrace his inner Butler. Once that traitor left for the Bums, he was dead to me, but I have to admit that while he was in SF, he embodied everything that I love about a center fielder. He was fast, got great jumps on the ball, had a tremendous (if oversized) glove, he could take pitches and get on base via the walk, he could drag bunt 20 hits per year and he knew how to steal a base.

Right now, Torres is all of those EXCEPT the parts related to hitting.

+1. The only thing I would add is that Torres is also a switch hitter, so he should have been learning to drag bunt and slap hit from day one. The only reason I ever learned to bat left-handed was to be a few steps closer to first base, so I could get on a couple more times each season (stupid opposing high school coaches not doing their homework).

It would be great if Mr. Towers would take that advice because Melky could be a solid LF/#6 hitter if Andy would embrace the lead-off hitter role. I do agree with everyone that it is extremely unlikely given his age and abilities, but I just can't believe that he wouldn't see that it is in his best interests after last season. Either way, yeah, 4th OF on the cheap if he doesn't go to arb. Beats the hell out of Rowand.

 

[Heathbar012]

(keeping on the theme):

Sixteen teams! No DH! No playoffs! No minorities! No split-fingered fastball! No free agency!

(we could go on and on...)

Take out the bolded and I'm sold. More double-headers! Dead baseballs! Off-season jobs for players! Rampant public drunkenness and general debauchery! I guess I basically just want minor league baseball.

 

[msgkings322]

Take out the bolded and I'm sold. More double-headers! Dead baseballs! Off-season jobs for players! Rampant public drunkenness and general debauchery! I guess I basically just want minor league baseball.

You win! Repped.