"Projected" Lineup

[msgkings322]

I'm not sure the Giants will resign Beltran. Of course if they do then he would be our LF and Melky and Torres can battle it out in CF. I'm kind of hoping the Yankees pick him up and buy out Swisher and the Giants pick Swisher up.

Torres CF
Sanchez 2B
Scherholtz RF
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Melky/Belt LF
Huff/Belt 1B
Crawford SS

or if we get Swisher

Melky CF
Sanchez 2B
Swisher LF
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Schierholtz RF
Huff/Belt 1B
Crawford SS

I think Torres will have a bounce back year and play closer to his levels in 2010 then 2011. Giants need to sit him down and tell him he's a leadoff hitter and he should prepare for that role and not a power guy. If he doesn't get that he's a leadoff hitter not a HR hitter then Melky moves to CF and Belt in LF

Totally agree. Why are so many of you (and Bill James!) already pencilling in Beltran? I'd say we have maybe a 20% chance of getting him at best.

As for Torres, I don't see how you can project that. I'd love to see it, and I was skeptical Panda could bounce back as strong as he did, but there's a huge difference. Torres was a nonentity, had an amazing 2010, then came back to earth. He's old. I just don't see how 2010 is anything but an aberration.

Also, Swisher would indeed be a nice pickup if he became available, relative to our budget.

 

[tzill]

I'm not sure the Giants will resign Beltran. Of course if they do then he would be our LF and Melky and Torres can battle it out in CF. I'm kind of hoping the Yankees pick him up and buy out Swisher and the Giants pick Swisher up.

Torres CF
Sanchez 2B
Scherholtz RF
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Melky/Belt LF
Huff/Belt 1B
Crawford SS

or if we get Swisher

Melky CF
Sanchez 2B
Swisher LF
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Schierholtz RF
Huff/Belt 1B
Crawford SS

I think Torres will have a bounce back year and play closer to his levels in 2010 then 2011. Giants need to sit him down and tell him he's a leadoff hitter and he should prepare for that role and not a power guy. If he doesn't get that he's a leadoff hitter not a HR hitter then Melky moves to CF and Belt in LF

Why in the world would the Yanks buy out Nick Swisher? At $10.25MM he's a bargain since he puts up 3.5 WAR a year consistently. Second, they have the money. Third, they can trade him for value. That just makes NO sense whatsoever.

I'm not sure that they can tell Andres "you're a leadoff hitter, now draw more walks, see more pitches, etc." He is who he is and will be a good fourth OF and defensive replacement when Melky slides over to LF when we pull Beltran.

 

[tzill]

Totally agree. Why are so many of you (and Bill James!) already pencilling in Beltran? I'd say we have maybe a 20% chance of getting him at best.

As for Torres, I don't see how you can project that. I'd love to see it, and I was skeptical Panda could bounce back as strong as he did, but there's a huge difference. Torres was a nonentity, had an amazing 2010, then came back to earth. He's old. I just don't see how 2010 is anything but an aberration.

Also, Swisher would indeed be a nice pickup if he became available, relative to our budget.

Bill James hasn't said anything about which team Beltran is going to play for. You may be right about the 20% figure, but I'm remaining positive. Totally agree on Andres and Swisher won't be available.

 

[sfsportsfan]

Why in the world would the Yanks buy out Nick Swisher? At $10.25MM he's a bargain since he puts up 3.5 WAR a year consistently. Second, they have the money. Third, they can trade him for value. That just makes NO sense whatsoever.

I'm not sure that they can tell Andres "you're a leadoff hitter, now draw more walks, see more pitches, etc." He is who he is and will be a good fourth OF and defensive replacement when Melky slides over to LF when we pull Beltran.

wait, you want Beltran in center?

:mmph:

 

[Giantsmojo]

Why in the world would the Yanks buy out Nick Swisher? At $10.25MM he's a bargain since he puts up 3.5 WAR a year consistently. Second, they have the money. Third, they can trade him for value. That just makes NO sense whatsoever.

I'm not sure that they can tell Andres "you're a leadoff hitter, now draw more walks, see more pitches, etc." He is who he is and will be a good fourth OF and defensive replacement when Melky slides over to LF when we pull Beltran.

Yeh they could trade him for value, I was just thinking if they went after Beltran it could make Swisher available, maybe via trade rather then buying out like you pointed out.

Torres went into last season looking to put up more power numbers, I think Torres is a special case while he's 34 he had been moving around the minors and finally showed success in 2010, you could look at 2011 as a Sophmore slump since 2010 was his 1st season with any regular playing time.

 

[Giantsmojo]

wait, you want Beltran in center?

:mmph:

No he's saying Beltran in LF, Melky in CF and when they put in Torres as a defensive replacement for Beltran, Melky slides from CF to LF and Torres in CF.

 

[jingo]

wait, you want Beltran in center?

:mmph:

I think it's Beltran in LF and Melky in CF. Torres goes to CF as a late inning replacement; Melky moves to LF and Beltran to the bench.

ooops, sorry (not as quick on the keyboard)

 

[jingo]

No he's saying Beltran in LF, Melky in CF and when they put in Torres as a defensive replacement for Beltran, Melky slides from CF to LF and Torres in CF.

Is Melky a better LF than Beltran?

If Belt, Pill and Torres are on the bench, would you use Belt and Torres as late inning replacements in the outfield and have Pill replace Huff at 1B? Or will it be a different combination depending on opponent, playing field, recent ABs, etc?

 

[msgkings322]

Is Melky a better LF than Beltran?

If Belt, Pill and Torres are on the bench, would you use Belt and Torres as late inning replacements in the outfield and have Pill replace Huff at 1B? Or will it be a different combination depending on opponent, playing field, recent ABs, etc?

My grandmother is a better LF than Beltran.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeh they could trade him for value, I was just thinking if they went after Beltran it could make Swisher available, maybe via trade rather then buying out like you pointed out.

Torres went into last season looking to put up more power numbers, I think Torres is a special case while he's 34 he had been moving around the minors and finally showed success in 2010, you could look at 2011 as a Sophmore slump since 2010 was his 1st season with any regular playing time.

You could do that, but IMO you'd be wrong. 'Sophomore slumps' if they are a real thing, are mainly a guy having early success and then the league figuring out holes in their swing, or maybe the player reading their press and getting lazy so they slump.

Sometimes the obvious is simply the truth. Torres is a 4th OF who had an improbable amazing year in 2010 when no one knew who he was (remember Rowand had to go down to get him in the lineup), then cam back to earth last year. Earth being his talent level. At age 34.

Sophomore slumps are for 25 year olds not 34 year olds.

 

[Heathbar012]

Is Melky a better LF than Beltran?

If Belt, Pill and Torres are on the bench, would you use Belt and Torres as late inning replacements in the outfield and have Pill replace Huff at 1B? Or will it be a different combination depending on opponent, playing field, recent ABs, etc?

I think Belt is a better defensive replacement at 1B. I also think Beltran is a better LF than Melky, but it's close. So close that I don't think it would matter one way or another. If the Giants get Beltran and Huff plays well, Belt will get slightly Ishikawaed.

 

[Heathbar012]

You could do that, but IMO you'd be wrong. 'Sophomore slumps' if they are a real thing, are mainly a guy having early success and then the league figuring out holes in their swing, or maybe the player reading their press and getting lazy so they slump.

Sometimes the obvious is simply the truth. Torres is a 4th OF who had an improbable amazing year in 2010 when no one knew who he was (remember Rowand had to go down to get him in the lineup), then cam back to earth last year. Earth being his talent level. At age 34.

Sophomore slumps are for 25 year olds not 34 year olds.

I agree with your overall assessment, but not some of the parts of the whole. Torres was extremely impressive at the end of 2009 and during the 2010 Spring Training. If he finally listens to the great baseball minds around him and uses a lighter, shorter bat, works on bunting and taking pitches, he can be a better player than last year. However, you are right that even an improved Torres is still a fourth OF on any World Series contending team in 2012.

 

[msgkings322]

I agree with your overall assessment, but not some of the parts of the whole. Torres was extremely impressive at the end of 2009 and during the 2010 Spring Training. If he finally listens to the great baseball minds around him and uses a lighter, shorter bat, works on bunting and taking pitches, he can be a better player than last year. However, you are right that even an improved Torres is still a fourth OF on any World Series contending team in 2012.

Why would he do that now, if he didn't last year?

 

[Heathbar012]

Why would he do that now, if he didn't last year?

A .643 OPS and the threat of more time in the minors can do wonders to change a man's mind.

 

[msgkings322]

A .643 OPS and the threat of more time in the minors can do wonders to change a man's mind.

I wish it were just his mind that needed changing. Gotta disagree on this one, my friend. He is what he is.

 

[Heathbar012]

I wish it were just his mind that needed changing. Gotta disagree on this one, my friend. He is what he is.

I'm sorry. Is it last year and you're talking about Panda? :p I'm not saying he will ever come close to the .823 OPS he put up in 2010, but if he takes some advice, I don't see .725 being out of the realm of possibility. That's still 4th OF status, but it's a darn sight better than .643. You're right that the "sophomore slump" moniker doesn't work here because of his age, but it certainly works as far as adjusting to pitchers that have adjusted to him (ie. throw him solely inside because he can't get that humungous club around). He used a lighter bat when he was batting right handed last year, so I don't think he is completely averse to change. It is certainly in his best interest.

 

[msgkings322]

I'm sorry. Is it last year and you're talking about Panda? :p I'm not saying he will ever come close to the .823 OPS he put up in 2010, but if he takes some advice, I don't see .725 being out of the realm of possibility. That's still 4th OF status, but it's a darn sight better than .643. You're right that the "sophomore slump" moniker doesn't work here because of his age, but it certainly works as far as adjusting to pitchers that have adjusted to him (ie. throw him solely inside because he can't get that humungous club around). He used a lighter bat when he was batting right handed last year, so I don't think he is completely averse to change. It is certainly in his best interest.

Touche! Actually none of us know what'll happen. Nobody knows nuthin'.

And I do hope you're right, it'd be nice to have him as a guy who can come off the bench or spell guys, etc.

 

[Mays-Fan]

I agree with your overall assessment, but not some of the parts of the whole. Torres was extremely impressive at the end of 2009 and during the 2010 Spring Training. If he finally listens to the great baseball minds around him and uses a lighter, shorter bat, works on bunting and taking pitches, he can be a better player than last year. However, you are right that even an improved Torres is still a fourth OF on any World Series contending team in 2012.

I err on the side of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, sometimes to a fault. In Torres's case, IIRC, he trained very hard after the 2010 season. Somewhere I recall a video of him doing windsprints up a muddy hill with a big log on his shoulders. Regardless, also IIRC, didn't he get hurt in ST 2011, perhaps an achilles strain? Those can be hard to recover from, something that could have nagged him all year. Let's not give up on him just yet.

I'm just offering that he may have been an unlucky injury victim in 2011 of his own success and hard work. I hope. And I hope he will recover in 2012.

And use a lighter bat, for Pete's sake.

 

[calsnowskier]

I err on the side of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, sometimes to a fault. In Torres's case, IIRC, he trained very hard after the 2010 season. Somewhere I recall a video of him doing windsprints up a muddy hill with a big log on his shoulders. Regardless, also IIRC, didn't he get hurt in ST 2011, perhaps an achilles strain? Those can be hard to recover from, something that could have nagged him all year. Let's not give up on him just yet.

I'm just offering that he may have been an unlucky injury victim in 2011 of his own success and hard work. I hope. And I hope he will recover in 2012.

And use a lighter bat, for Pete's sake.

There was stock footage used on The Franchise of him tossing a cinder block in the air and him jumping up a muddy hill.

I think there is a good chance he recovers and has a better year than '11. However, to expect him to return to '10 is a fool's errand, I think. He is just too old to be able to put up that kind of improvement, especially when he simply does not have the track record to indicate it is possible. If he turns in a solid #4 OF season, I will consider it a win.

 

[tzill]

I err on the side of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, sometimes to a fault. In Torres's case, IIRC, he trained very hard after the 2010 season. Somewhere I recall a video of him doing windsprints up a muddy hill with a big log on his shoulders. Regardless, also IIRC, didn't he get hurt in ST 2011, perhaps an achilles strain? Those can be hard to recover from, something that could have nagged him all year. Let's not give up on him just yet.

I'm just offering that he may have been an unlucky injury victim in 2011 of his own success and hard work. I hope. And I hope he will recover in 2012.

And use a lighter bat, for Pete's sake.

The big question is: do you offer him arb? If so, he could get $2.5-3.0MM