Post Your Top 3 AL/NL MVP/CYA - End of August

[rmilia1]

View attachment 27737

LOL, that made me laugh at least

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

They dont have anything to do with each other. Salaries are based on previous performance and expected performance. They have no correlation to an individual years value. Unless you think John Lester is more valuable than Jake Arrieta?? Or that Albert Pujols is 4 times as valuable to the Angels this year as Mike Trout is?? There are about a billion other examples to use but I think you get the drift.

You know, I've decided I'd like to plumb the depths here. I'm going to see if I can lead you to the understanding of why player salaries would be germane to the discussion.

Good luck, rmilia!

1) At what point of the conversation did I bring up salaries?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Of course I can have it both ways. Why wouldnt I be able to?? The playoffs are a huge deal to me but that cant be the only reasoning or else youd just give MVP to the best player on the team with the best record. Rizzo IS clutch. Thats why he is the best player amongst NL playoff teams. Thats why I would give him the award if it were me

WHy?? I said earlier, that I agree with you that NON playoff players need to be compared differently, but stated that in this case it is not even close... you have come back and explained why it is close and how clutch Rizzo is... You cant compare Rizzo with Harper or goldshmidt if you are so hard bent about no playoff players... Just knock them out right away... Don't bring up clutchness of Harper to lower Harper's value... Just say Rizzo is the best offensive bat from all playoff teams... And I don't think anyone would have disagreed with you about that... It was you who started comparing Rizzo to Harper, and once you do that you are arguing contradicting things...

Then when all you care about is making the playoffs, and discounting SP, but saying a RP CAN win is just again contradicting yourself...

Just say the MVP can ONLY be won by an offensive player who makes the playoffs, and then there would have been no debate... That would have been your opinion...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

You know, I've decided I'd like to plumb the depths here. I'm going to see if I can lead you to the understanding of why player salaries would be germane to the discussion.

Good luck, rmilia!

1) At what point of the conversation did I bring up salaries?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Didnt say relievers, I said dominant closer. Dominant as in just that. A guy like that ahs far more effect on a teams season than a starting pitcher ever can if only because they dont play in enough games. We already had this talk though, you disagree. It is cool.

I don't know if you know this, but there is a context driven stat called "Win Probability Added" that attempts to cover exactly what you're talking about. It examines what impact every play had on the team's probability of winning the game. It's available from 1940 to the present, so there won't even be any 400 inning seasons in there screwing things up.

Only 4 of the top 20 pitching seasons are relievers, and really none of those 4 seasons bear any resemblance to how the modern "closer" is used, as all 4 pitched 119+ innings (1984 Willie Hernandez, 1973 John Hiller, 1980 Doug Corbett and 1965 Stu Miller are the seasons). The highest rated season by a closer being used like a present day closer is 1996 Troy Percival, whose season ranks 27th overall.

 

[Wazmankg]

I don't know if you know this, but there is a context driven stat called "Win Probability Added" that attempts to cover exactly what you're talking about. It examines what impact every play had on the team's probability of winning the game. It's available from 1940 to the present, so there won't even be any 400 inning seasons in there screwing things up.

Only 4 of the top 20 pitching seasons are relievers, and really none of those 4 seasons bear any resemblance to how the modern "closer" is used, as all 4 pitched 119+ innings (1984 Willie Hernandez, 1973 John Hiller, 1980 Doug Corbett and 1965 Stu Miller are the seasons). The highest rated season by a closer being used like a present day closer is 1996 Troy Percival, whose season ranks 27th overall.

Are you suggesting that a pitching performance where a starter goes 7 can't be equated to one where a reliever pitches an inning ? Well I'll be damned.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Are you suggesting that a pitching performance where a starter goes 7 can't be equated to one where a reliever pitches an inning ? Well I'll be damned.

Exactly. It should not even need to be explained, but alas:

Didnt say relievers, I said dominant closer. Dominant as in just that. A guy like that ahs far more effect on a teams season than a starting pitcher ever can if only because they dont play in enough games. We already had this talk though, you disagree. It is cool.

and:

Don't go that far... there are relievers that any GM would want more than even some #1 pitchers... Rmilla was correct with one statement that there is a difference between who is better and who is more valuable... A dominant closer is more valuable than most SP... Just not a dominant SP...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

 

[rmilia1]

Exactly. It should not even need to be explained, but alas:



and:

A closer that has 7 successful saves in a row for his team is more valuable than a starter who goes 7 and has a quality start. Yes that is EXACTLY what Im saying. Because the starter that goes 7 and has a quality start isnt guaranteed to win you that game even if he pitches well. A closer either saves the game or he doesnt. A DOMINANT closer saves nearly EVERY game he is able to. That is more valauble than a starter. Doesnt mean he is a better pitcher, it means he adds more to your team ESPECIALLY if you have a good or great team and since I think MVP's only come from playoff teams my opinion shouldnt surprise anyone

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

A closer that has 7 successful saves in a row for his team is more valuable than a starter who goes 7 and has a quality start. Yes that is EXACTLY what Im saying. Because the starter that goes 7 and has a quality start isnt guaranteed to win you that game even if he pitches well. A closer either saves the game or he doesnt. A DOMINANT closer saves nearly EVERY game he is able to. That is more valauble than a starter. Doesnt mean he is a better pitcher, it means he adds more to your team ESPECIALLY if you have a good or great team and since I think MVP's only come from playoff teams my opinion shouldnt surprise anyone

Holy shit, son. It is a fucking wonder you can even feed yourself.

 

[rmilia1]

Holy shit, son. It is a fucking wonder you can even feed yourself.

Hey Slink Cubs got a QUALITY start from their best pitcher ( per your argument ) Jon Lester today. 1 run and 2 hits in 7 GREAT innings. Guess what happened?? They lost because they couldnt close the game... weird. I would have thought 150 million bucks and a GREAT start from a starting pitcher would have been enough. Guess the Cards didnt read this thread

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Guess the Cards didnt read this thread

If they had, they'd have certainly had a better understanding of what it meant than you have.

Hell, Arnie Grape would have.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Hey Slink Cubs got a QUALITY start from their best pitcher ( per your argument ) Jon Lester today. 1 run and 2 hits in 7 GREAT innings. Guess what happened?? They lost because they couldnt close the game... weird. I would have thought 150 million bucks and a GREAT start from a starting pitcher would have been enough. Guess the Cards didnt read this thread

You somehow gleaned from my posts that I think Jon Lester is the Cubs' best pitcher?

Seriously, I've been on various sports forums for over a decade. While I've definitely run across folks as misguided as you are, I've never found one with the completely unfounded confidence that you've got. For real. You're an amazing anomaly. I honestly think you should be studied in a laboratory.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Just a random question to non-Dbacks fans, yeah Paul Goldschmidt is in the running but where would you rank AJ Pollock and the season he's having? He's the most underrated player in baseball imo.

I think he's closing in on the top 5 in the NL MVP race. Won't win it obviously but should place anywhere from 4-8?

 

[Villain]

Just a random question to non-Dbacks fans, yeah Paul Goldschmidt is in the running but where would you rank AJ Pollock and the season he's having? He's the most underrated player in baseball imo.

I think he's closing in on the top 5 in the NL MVP race. Won't win it obviously but should place anywhere from 4-8?

I'd say he won't win it obviously but should place anywhere from 4-8.

 

[DragonfromTO]

A closer that has 7 successful saves in a row for his team is more valuable than a starter who goes 7 and has a quality start. Yes that is EXACTLY what Im saying. Because the starter that goes 7 and has a quality start isnt guaranteed to win you that game even if he pitches well. A closer either saves the game or he doesnt. A DOMINANT closer saves nearly EVERY game he is able to. That is more valauble than a starter. Doesnt mean he is a better pitcher, it means he adds more to your team ESPECIALLY if you have a good or great team and since I think MVP's only come from playoff teams my opinion shouldnt surprise anyone

In the time it takes the closer to get those 7 saves the starter will probably pitch 4 or 5 times though, not once.

 

[ericd7633]

Harper 3-4, 2 HR's, 2 RBI's, 3 Runs tonight. He's not clutch because the Nats are losing though.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

In the time it takes the closer to get those 7 saves the starter will probably pitch 4 or 5 times though, not once.

These are the kind of facts that when presented to him as bluntly as you have, make him dizzy.

In his world, there are seven baseball games a week, a starting pitcher pitches seven innings of one of them and a closer closes out all seven.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Harper 3-4, 2 HR's, 2 RBI's, 3 Runs tonight. He's not clutch because the Nats are losing though.

B. Harper
OF

WAS 3 v NYM 5 (F)
3-4, 2B, 2 HR, 2 RBI, 3 R 15 13

 

[navamind]

B. Harper
OF

WAS 3 v NYM 5 (F)
3-4, 2B, 2 HR, 2 RBI, 3 R 15 13

HIS FAULT