Poll: Who trades a first rounder for Foles first?

[Iggloo]

His whole argument is that Foles's 27-2 season should not be counted when judging him. That it is an outlier that should be ignored. I don't think reality works that way. You have to judge the totality of a player's record, the highs and lows, and judge what they are capable of. Foles is very OL dependent, no doubt about it. But he has shown when he gets good protection that he can be a pretty darn good Qb in this league. For some reason, Moose doesn't want to include the good performances from Foles in his evaluation. Hence, the inherent bias and twisting of statistics to make his argument.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

You modified your post, so I'll reply again.

You continue to ignore that he had one of the best QB seasons ever. The insane playoff success he has now is only in addition to his previous success. Regardless of that, you continue to pretend he has only ever had three good games. That is why you sound illogical.

It's only statistically great is what I argue. When you rewatch and see what he was doing, it wasn't all that great but he was executing the system along with some good fortune. The numbers are there, not so much the process. It's not a realistic representation of his skill. It's one of the more interesting outliers you'll ever find, that much I'll admit. Hasn't panned out to much until... these past 3 games. The latter being what people are really basing these threads off of, not 27:2 (he was hovering right around 1:1 until this year since then which is bad) so I certainly have ground to be skeptical. I'll admit Foles is worth a start somewhere, but a 1st is nonsense. At most a 2nd and another pick ranging from another 2nd to a 4th if the Eagles are lucky.

Based on the Allbright tweet, there currently isn't that much interest in Foles reading in between the lines. Think about that...

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Neither do they to you. We've been down this rabbit hole in several different ways. It ends up being reduced to being nuh-uhs and "yeah, buts" that aren't reconcilable as nobody can agree what is representative between Fisher, the regular/postseason, Pederson, Kelly, and Reid.

Facts are on my side. The silly nuh uhs and yeah buts are on your side. There was one season where Foles didn't look like an NFL starter. Your argument is based entirely on that one season and then you dismiss everything else.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

His whole argument is that Foles's 27-2 season should not be counted when judging him. That it is an outlier that should be ignored. I don't think reality works that way. You have to judge the totality of a player's record, the highs and lows, and judge what they are capable of. Foles is very OL dependent, no doubt about it. But he has shown when he gets good protection that he can be a pretty darn good Qb in this league. For some reason, Moose doesn't want to include the good performances from Foles in his evaluation. Hence, the inherent bias and twisting of statistics to make his argument.

Y'all act like 2014 was a season that never happened.

Philly 2013: 10 GS 27:2 8.5 TD% 0.6 INT% 9.1 Y/A 9.18 ANY/A
Philly 2014: 8 GS 13:10 4.2 TD% 3.2 INT% 7.0 Y/A 5.93 ANY/A

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

It's only statistically great is what I argue. When you rewatch and see what he was doing, it wasn't all that great but he was executing the system along with some good fortune. The numbers are there, not so much the process. It's not a realistic representation of his skill. It's one of the more interesting outliers you'll ever find, that much I'll admit. Hasn't panned out to much until... these past 3 games. The latter being what people are really basing these threads off of, not 27:2 (he was hovering right around 1:1 until this year since then which is bad) so I certainly have ground to be skeptical. I'll admit Foles is worth a start somewhere, but a 1st is nonsense. At most a 2nd and another pick ranging from another 2nd to a 4th if the Eagles are lucky.

Based on the Allbright tweet, there currently isn't that much interest in Foles reading in between the lines. Think about that...

I watched the season. Trust me. He was amazing. He probably should have had a few more interceptions, but every QB every season should have had more interceptions than they threw. Is he as good as the 27/2 numbers would suggest? No. No quarterback is ever THAT good. Was he fantastic that season? Absolutely. He kept making incredible decisions and good throws all season long. He made the right decision time after time. It is almost as if he looked like the guy who played for the Eagles this postseason. Crazy, I know.

 

[Iggloo]

Show us where we said 2014 didn't matter. Our point is both matter. You seem to want to exclude the highs.

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Y'all act like 2014 was a season that never happened.

Philly 2013: 10 GS 27:2 8.5 TD% 0.6 INT% 9.1 Y/A 9.18 ANY/A
Philly 2014: 8 GS 13:10 4.2 TD% 3.2 INT% 7.0 Y/A 5.93 ANY/A

Nobody ever acts like that season never happened. He looked decent that season, but he also looked like a QB getting hammered by defenders. Numbers say that we was an average NFL starter that season. Regression to the mean some might say. Amazing one season. Average the next. To moose, that means backup level somehow.

 

[Iggloo]

Those of us who watched 2014 also know that it was the year when Chip Kelly began to get exposed in the NFL.

He cut Desean Jackson in the offseason, thinking his system would work regardless, and the Eagles really missed the explosive deep threat Jackson had provided. Teams were literally calling out the Eagles' plays before the snap because Kelly was so stubbornly predictable.

Still, the Eagles were 6-2 before Nick Foles got hurt that year. They ended the season 10-6 and missed the playoffs after Mark Sanchez took over for Foles. Inconvenient facts for Moose.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Show us where we said 2014 didn't matter. Our point is both matter. You seem to want to exclude the highs.

I don't want to exclude them per se, I just don't value it anywhere even kind of close to what those stats suggest: Peyton Manning

2014 I'd argue is a much more reasonable Foles line and is far more consistent internally with his career. If pointing out an outlier is an outlier means I am excluding stuff, then fine I suppose. Let's say Fisher and 2013 are both bigly outliers and we should for the most part toss them out, we have 28 starts scattered between 2012 (6) 2014 (8) 2016 (1) 2017 (3) not including backup appearances or postseason starts (4; 1 in 2013, 3 this year).

out·li·er
ˈoutˌlīər/
noun

1. a person or thing situated away or detached from the main body or system.
   "less accessible islands and outliers"
   • a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.
     "an outlier in Faulkner's body of work"

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Those of us who watched 2014 also know that it was the year when Chip Kelly began to get exposed in the NFL.

He cut Desean Jackson in the offseason, thinking his system would work regardless, and the Eagles really missed the explosive deep threat Jackson had provided. Teams were literally calling out the Eagles' plays before the snap because Kelly was so stubbornly predictable.

Still, the Eagles were 6-2 before Nick Foles got hurt that year. They ended the season 10-6 and missed the playoffs after Mark Sanchez took over for Foles. Inconvenient facts for Moose.

See, that's where we agree and I have been alluding to, we just have bigly different interpretations after that. It just further drives home, at least to me, how much of an outlier 2013 is and how unrealistic it is to replicate that over 16 games. Foles could just be a weird cookie and I am completely wrong, but I don't see how he's worth a 1st round pick based on track record that is confusing at best, and spotty at worst.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Nobody ever acts like that season never happened.

Forgotten might be the better word. But sure, it's ignored nonetheless.

Show us where we said 2014 didn't matter

By means of omission. Just seems too convenient to forget.

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Forgotten might be the better word. But sure, it's ignored nonetheless.


By means of omission. Just seems too convenient to forget.

Ignored by nobody. One great season. One average season. One poor season. To moose, that means a career of backup level performance.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Ignored by nobody. One great season. One average season. One poor season. To moose, that means a career of backup level performance.

Sure has been in this thread. It's really suspicious knowing this happened:

It's also can be backtracked as a commentary to 2013 given it was the same scheme.

Those of us who watched 2014 also know that it was the year when Chip Kelly began to get exposed in the NFL.

He cut Desean Jackson in the offseason, thinking his system would work regardless, and the Eagles really missed the explosive deep threat Jackson had provided. Teams were literally calling out the Eagles' plays before the snap because Kelly was so stubbornly predictable.

Still, the Eagles were 6-2 before Nick Foles got hurt that year. They ended the season 10-6 and missed the playoffs after Mark Sanchez took over for Foles. Inconvenient facts for Moose.

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Sure has been in this thread. It's really suspicious knowing this happened:

It's also can be backtracked as a commentary to 2013 given it was the same scheme.

My whole point to you has been that he has had one great season, one average season, and one poor season. Those are his only real three seasons as a starter. You can point out a spot start here and there in other seasons if you want, but those are pointless to me. He has three seasons as a starter and they have been great, average, and poor. How can a rational person say that he has been backup level his entire career? You sound like Stephen A Smith or Skip Bayless at this point.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

My whole point to you has been that he has had one great season, one average season, and one poor season. Those are his only real three seasons as a starter. You can point out a spot start here and there in other seasons if you want, but those are pointless to me. He has three seasons as a starter and they have been great, average, and poor. How can a rational person say that he has been backup level his entire career? You sound like Stephen A Smith or Skip Bayless at this point.

The only stat Foles was above average in was sack% and and NY/A


Y/A, AY/A, ANY/A, completion percentage, TD%, INT%, and passer rating were all below average.Those are stats of a QB around 20th-25th, which is what I have been saying about Foles for a while now.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

>Moose isn't using any stats
>Moose uses stats to point out 2014 doesn't jive with the Fisher made Foles suck narrative
>Gets Eagles fans to admit Kelly's scheme was a sham
>WHY ARE YOU NOT INCLUDING THE HIGHS, MOOSE

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

The only stat Foles was above average in was sack% and and NY/A


Y/A, AY/A, ANY/A, completion percentage, TD%, INT%, and passer rating were all below average.Those are stats of a QB around 20th-25th, which is what I have been saying about Foles for a while now.

No. You've been saying he has been backup level his entire career. Saying he was a middle of the road starting QB one season is a far cry from what you've been saying.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

No. You've been saying he has been backup level his entire career. Saying he was a middle of the road starting QB one season is a far cry from what you've been saying.

Eh, not what I told @Roy Munson

So no, still wrong. There are not 32 starting caliber QB's in the NFL.

Foles is somewhere around the 25th best QB in the NFL in my book. Maybe a few spots above that, maybe a few below. He's not a QB I trust at all. Certainly not enough to fork over a 1st.

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

>Moose isn't using any stats
>Moose uses stats to point out 2014 doesn't jive with the Fisher made Foles suck narrative
>Gets Eagles fans to admit Kelly's scheme was a sham
>WHY ARE YOU NOT INCLUDING THE HIGHS, MOOSE

You have been cherry picking.
His 2014 season and his Fisher season were quite different. As was his 2013 season.
I don't care about Kelly at this point.
You not only aren't including the highs, but you aren't including the mids. You are only focused on the lows (Jeff Fisher season).

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Eh, not what I told @Roy Munson

So no, still wrong. There are not 32 starting caliber QB's in the NFL.

How many are there? 6? I'm pretty sure based on the fact that there are 32 teams that there are roughly 32 starting caliber QB's. You stating that a QB who is roughly 4th, 15th, and 37th in three consecutive seasons has been backup level QB his entire career just shows that you lack logic. You lost this argument. Quit while you are behind.