politics thread

[Sharkinva]

That is the purpose of immigrating. I am talking immigration. Why do we need immigrants?

Over the last twenty years.

We need immigrants because the fact is the world is changing. You can either change with it, or fight like hell to remain stagnant. And while some think we were great 20 years ago... I tend to disagree.

And if we started to become ungreat 20 years ago, you didnt say WHY you thought we lost our greatness.

 

[skinsdad62]

Ill agree pulling the thats a bs source card is frustrating but i dont know what to tell you man. The source you posted is incredibly flawed.

Bloomberg and the national academies source are both very credible sources. Im not sure what else to tell you.

As for crimes by illegal immigrants. Totally agree its a tragedy and something thats avoidable and that we should work to avoid. But thats true of ALL crime and illegal immigrants actually commit crime at a lower rate than native born citizens.

Im certainly not telling you all conservatives are wing nuts or white supremacists. Thats a ridiculous argument. Unfortunately there are some who would make that argument but nobody here is. I certainly don't think you're a crazy white supremacist or anything and have never claimed that.

i am sorry but they are not credible when financed by george soros . the national academies are all liberal and push for socialist policies

as for native born criminals , we are stuck with that but illegals we are not stuck with and i dont care if they commit a lower amount of crime , (which they do not according to arizona's research ) the fact is they shouldnt be here to commit any more crimes then the first one they committed coming here in the first place

 

[Sharkinva]

as for native born criminals , we are stuck with that but illegals we are not stuck with and i dont care if they commit a lower amount of crime , (which they do not according to arizona's research ) the fact is they shouldnt be here to commit any more crimes then the first one they committed coming here in the first place

So we just discount the fact that this is a problem of our own creation?? As the majority of these people would NOT be criminals if immigrating was not made so difficult intentionally... well depending on where you are coming from that is.

 

[skinsdad62]

So we just discount the fact that this is a problem of our own creation?? As the majority of these people would NOT be criminals if immigrating was not made so difficult intentionally... well depending on where you are coming from that is.

i diidnt create any of that mess . . we decided to go against russian supported communism in south america . that side won because we pulled out , because another dictator we supported was protested against by our citizens . fair enough but i didnt see any democratic causes rise up so we stayed away

some of those countries sell us drugs . some people her buy them , who is more at fault ? i doubt there is a good answer for that

when do citizens of those countries of those countries get some accountability ?

ithe french and the british controlled the middle east along with the ottoman turks . we had no colonies in either of those places , none in africa either

radical muslims came to power in the middle east . aint my fault one bit . if radicals dont speak for all muslims and the vast majority of muslims dont support their ideas then they can take up arms just like the radicals did and fight for their rights .

but its the US's fault they dont ? instead we have to be like europe , take some in and then deal with the problems caused by it ? again saudi arabia , qatar , kuwait , bahrian jordan egypt all have financial resources to help out but dont , why ?

i am all for legal immigration . i am all for a guest worker program . i am not all for being the world crisis management center . we have a UN for that .

i am sorry but white christian noregians arent blowing up our buildings and commiting acts of terror here in the US . most are muslims , muslim radicals to be specific .

 

[Sharkinva]

i diidnt create any of that mess . . we decided to go against russian supported communism in south america . that side won because we pulled out , because another dictator we supported was protested against by our citizens . fair enough but i didnt see any democratic causes rise up so we stayed away

some of those countries sell us drugs . some people her buy them , who is more at fault ? i doubt there is a good answer for that

when do citizens of those countries of those countries get some accountability ?

ithe french and the british controlled the middle east along with the ottoman turks . we had no colonies in either of those places , none in africa either

radical muslims came to power in the middle east . aint my fault one bit . if radicals dont speak for all muslims and the vast majority of muslims dont support their ideas then they can take up arms just like the radicals did and fight for their rights .

but its the US's fault they dont ? instead we have to be like europe , take some in and then deal with the problems caused by it ? again saudi arabia , qatar , kuwait , bahrian jordan egypt all have financial resources to help out but dont , why ?

i am all for legal immigration . i am all for a guest worker program . i am not all for being the world crisis management center . we have a UN for that .

i am sorry but white christian noregians arent blowing up our buildings and commiting acts of terror here in the US . most are muslims , muslim radicals to be specific .

Dude, you act as if I hold these countries blameless.

Fact is this country was built on immigration. No one bitched about it until the immigrants coming in started to look darker than the majority group.

Radical Islam was not a problem for the US until such time as the US started to try and push Christian values in the middle east and make deals for oil.

And none of this changes the fact that the only REAL crime most of these people have committed is seeking the American dream. You know, that ability to provide a better safer life for themselves and their families. Yes yes I know but they came here illegally. If given the option, most would gladly come here legally even without citizenship. But cant have too many in the country at one time now can we??

 

[skinsdad62]

Dude, you act as if I hold these countries blameless.

Fact is this country was built on immigration. No one bitched about it until the immigrants coming in started to look darker than the majority group.

Radical Islam was not a problem for the US until such time as the US started to try and push Christian values in the middle east and make deals for oil.

And none of this changes the fact that the only REAL crime most of these people have committed is seeking the American dream. You know, that ability to provide a better safer life for themselves and their families. Yes yes I know but they came here illegally. If given the option, most would gladly come here legally even without citizenship. But cant have too many in the country at one time now can we??

i dont think that is an issue . i think they simply refuse to follow our laws because past presidents looked the other way

and what christian values did they push ? the english french ottomans controlled the middle east

 

[Sharkinva]

I read this in some old law book

We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Wonder how that judge (if you believe in his laws that is) would view this country.

 

[ehb5]

hmm how do I put this.... you dont know anything.

you think you know everything but the reality is you dont know a thing. I was there. I was in your position. I "knew" everything. I didnt....

the group think of University campus is a shame and i cant pinpoint when it happened but in 2018 i'd place the weight of current collegiate students opinions as they relate to politics as low as possible on the totem pole.

Ya know ive disagreed with a lot of things said in this thread but this might be the most ignorant and arrogant post I've read.

What is your basis for the claim that i know nothing? You have brought nothing to the discussion yourself. Im happy to actually discuss the issue but you seem to be avoiding that in favor of baseless insults.

As for the university system. Something tells me i was in college more recently than you so maybe we should take my word over yours considering i ACTUALLY know what it's like at a large public university in america.

And i can tell you this much. Its nothing like how you seem to imagine it. I don't think you have any idea what it's like. Furthermore you have NO idea what my beliefs are aside from that Im pro immigration and anti trump.

In short, you have no idea what youre talking about.

Feel free to actually try and bring something of value to the conversation for once though and try to convince me otherwise.

 

[ehb5]

we have 12 -20 mil illegal immigrants here , we should have one

my data is accurate , i dont but george soros funded organizations and the debate about including daca people in it as some sort of skew is ridiculous

i dont but your net gain data either , but say i did , so what ? they are breaking our law and hence they should be gone period . if i enter those countries illegally i go to jail

why are we expected to do everything humanitarian in the world ? those other countries do little and the UN does very little as well

open borders are a policy that communist and socialist support in their effort for one world govt under their ideology and allowing illegal immigration is in fact open borders

i support LEGAL immigration and guest worker programs along with the wall and e verify . i will never support anything else

any crime an illegal commits is one that shouldnt happen period so i give a damn about per capita , in truth its 100% because you commited a crime by entering the country illegally

you dont have to like Trump at all . not important , i didnt like obama

Why is your data accurate? I pointed out several large flaws in your source but you have provided nothing to defend it.

As for my sources. Why are they George soros funded? Why is he the boogeyman? What is actually wrong with my sources. I cited a very reputable news source and a very reputable research center. You cited an orgamization founded by a white supremacist (actually). You tell me the difference.

Why dont you buy my net gain data? You can't just wave away information you don't like. If you have a legitimate criticism of the source or data im all ears but simply saying "i don't buy it" is BS. Thats just shutting your ears to info you don't like.

Do you not want america to be humanitarian? Shouldn't we strive to be good people both individually and globally?

But even if you dont care. Lets say you only want america to do well you don't care about the rest of the world. Immigrants make america stronger.

Look at it like this. America is a team. Immigrants are just recruits that make us an even better team. Don't you want that for america?

I don't think it's inherently racist for wanting a wall and i don't think you're racist if you want one. I just think it's wasteful spending to stop the boogeyman. It's a big show for no actual gain.

Also final point in this post. Nobody (or at least im not) is trying to convince we should be freely letting illegal immigrants into the country. My point is that 1. They are not NEARLY as harmful as you think 2. They're likely beneficial and 3. Throwing them out when they haven't comitted crimes other than entering is awful and 4. The anti illegal immigration push is harmful to legal immigration, our citizens, and our country.

 

[ehb5]

I think the key word is "legal" and not "immigrant."

This country was built on immigrants .... after they killed the indigenous people or gave them title to some of the worst land in this country.

I don't understand what the problem with being a legal immigrant is or why that should seem like we are being mean spirited or racist.

And I think thats defensible if thats how you feel. I dont think its reasonable to want open borders and people streaming in unwatched.

The problem is that thats not really whats happening. Illegal immigration is not the problem its made out to be. Instead its been turned into this horrow show issue where the reaction by some politicians (like Trump) is to lash out at immigrants and legal immigration. And legal immigration is awesome! But its dragged down by all the anti immigration talk we have now.

So yes, if somebody said "I support legal immigration 100%, I recognize its good for the country, and that its bad to tear up immigrant families already in the country, but I want to stop people from coming into this country illegally" that would be a pretty solid point. But thats not really the point people make.

Instead they view immigrants as harmful, job stealers, and violent criminals who are destroying our country and our culture. And regardless of the reasons people may think that - its just not accurate.

 

[Sharkinva]

And I think thats defensible if thats how you feel. I dont think its reasonable to want open borders and people streaming in unwatched.

The problem is that thats not really whats happening. Illegal immigration is not the problem its made out to be. Instead its been turned into this horrow show issue where the reaction by some politicians (like Trump) is to lash out at immigrants and legal immigration. And legal immigration is awesome! But its dragged down by all the anti immigration talk we have now.

So yes, if somebody said "I support legal immigration 100%, I recognize its good for the country, and that its bad to tear up immigrant families already in the country, but I want to stop people from coming into this country illegally" that would be a pretty solid point. But thats not really the point people make.

Instead they view immigrants as harmful, job stealers, and violent criminals who are destroying our country and our culture. And regardless of the reasons people may think that - its just not accurate.

As I mentioned in another post, if it did not take months and in some cases YEARS just to get permission to come in from Mexico or some other places, I doubt we would have a whole lot of illegal immigration. (Of which we actually dont any way)

I will also point out the folly that they ar taking jobs way from deserving unskilled American workers. In todays USA, being an unskilled laborer is a choice if you were born here. Because every American citizen is afforded the ability to go to school and become said skilled laborer. So those that think our society should be based on merit alone, should have no problem with an unskilled laborer willing to work twice as hard for half the pay getting the position. As the born American had every opportunity to become a skilled worker and not need that job to begin with.

 

[ehb5]

1- What makes Dad’s source questionable but your source unbiased? Can you disprove anything written in the FAIR article? They gave actual numbers, broken down. That is far more telling than a liberal think tank telling you what to believe without giving you data. Show his data to be incorrect and then you may have a point.

2- Again, it is impossible to figure out if immigration is up or down because the numbers are based on self-reporting. You never did answer, if you broke the law, would you self report?

3- Simply not true. We need to put limits on all immigration because we have qualified Americans out of work. Immigration should be used a supplement and we should be extremely picky on who we let in.

4- Actually it ties into illegal immigration perfectly. They come here to live a better life. We are trying to aid their countries so they can improve the lives of their own people. Corruption prevents this. We went to war with England because we didn’t like how things were. Why can’t other people do the same in their countries?

5- There is a massive flow, both ways. Anything that hurts American citizens, especially here in America, is simply wrong. Not a dime should go to foreigners until we take care of our own.

6- But those immigrants do not help American citizens. There is a limited amount of tax-payer money, so yes it does have to be an either/or thing. Let’s fix the US first, then discuss the rest of the world.

7- Tell me how immigrants help this country, be exact.

8- see 7

9- This is where your argument makes no sense. Canada doesn’t want to allow ILLEGALS into their country, asylum seekers. It isn’t their loss for not accepting the dregs of society. Canada allows a lot of immigration, they just want it done legally so they can get skilled people.

10- The U.N. should be doing their job that we pay a brunt of them to do.

11- Not true. 100% of illegal immigrants commit crime. From there, our prison system is littered with people who should have never been here. From there, one crime committed against a US citizen by a non-citizen is inexcusable.

12- What? That doesn’t even make sense.

13- I don’t like Trump but he is a helluva lot better policy wise than the last two POTUS.

14- Prove to me he is a bigot.

15- your whole statement was BS

16- Immigrants, especially illegals, are not assimilating. They are trying to convert the US into what they left.

1. His source comes from an organization founded by a white supremacist. The organization is dedicated to being anti immigration. Its front page is blatantly partisan and the methods of the study he linked to were questionable at best.

I linked sources from a highly respected center to center-left news organization and a credible research organization (not sure where youre getting liberal think tank from?).

The difference is clear.

2. The numbers arent really based on self reporting. They use different methods and account for the fact that there may be underreporting. This also isnt an uncommon problem in statistics. You act like we have no way of knowing how many illegal immigrants there are because anybody could be lying and an illegal in hiding but the reality is thats not actually true. We can get pretty solid estimates.

As for would I report something illegal? Depends who and why somebody is asking. But again - this is accounted for.

3. Uhhh the employment rate is extremely low right now. There isnt an epidemic of american workers struggling to find jobs right now. And those immigrants we let in would work jobs (not steal them) and help our economy grow. In fact letting in more immigrants may finally get the stalled wage growth going for native born citizens.

4. Ok but Im not sure what your point is? You complain theres corruption but also complain we're giving them money? Some countries just have problems and we cant fix them for them. *shrug*

5. Soooo not a massive flow. Got it. And as I said. Immigration is not hurting american citizens. Its helping them.

6. Those immigrants DO help American citizens. You say theres a limited amount of tax dollars. Do you know what would increase the amount of tax dollars available? Yup. Immigration.

I totally agree we should work on the US first and foremost. Thats why we should be encouraging immigration! It makes us stronger!

7. They help the economy grow, they're entrepreneurial, they can help wage growth, they provide increased demand for goods, services, and labor, they increase tax revenue, they bring innovation and cultural diversity, their children make highly productive citizens.

8 - see 7

9 - Im not sure what you're arguing here. Why do I care what Canada does?

10 - What do you mean by their job? What does that have to do with immigration?

11 - Yea very clever. You know what is meant by that. It means most illegal immigrants are actually upstanding members of society once they are here. Deporting them and tearing their families apart is cruel and destructive. Should they have come illegally? No. But we shouldnt react the way we do to it. Be compassionate. Work to stop future illegal immigration and grow legal immigration.

12 - Why doesnt that make sense? You dont want more candidates that understand immigration?

13 - *shrug* Im not getting into Trump v past presidents thats gonna spiral off topic real fast, but even if you dislike the last 2 presidents Trump has still done plenty of things to hurt Americans.

14 - Lol. THAT is going to drag us way off topic. But the way he talks about women, hispanics, muslims, and blacks is all disgusting. The list of offensive remarks and actions by Trump is miles long and Im sure youre well aware of it though Im sure you have an excuse for all of it. But at what point do you stop and realize he keeps putting his foot in his mouth because hes a bigot. Its not hard to not be an asshole if you arent actually one. Trump just is one. Even if you like his policies, he's clearly a vile human.

15 - Actually my statement was very accurate.

16 - What is the basis for this claim? Immigrants are assimilating just fine and contributing positively to the melting pot the US has always been.

 

[ehb5]

and i addressed that flaw , and showed the flaws in yours . and i didnt initially go after your sources knowing who and where they came from .

Where did you address the flaws I pointed out? If I missed it I apologize, but I havent seen anything.

I also havent seen you actually point out any flaws in mine.

You seem to think its unfair that I brought up the quality of sources though so let me ask you this...

Do you think everything you can find on the internet is true?

 

[ehb5]

That is the purpose of immigrating. I am talking immigration. Why do we need immigrants?

Over the last twenty years.

So to be clear...you DONT want more hard working people who bring demand for goods services and labor, start businesses, provide jobs, grow the economy, and have highly productive children?

My bad dude. I thought this whole time you wanted America to do BETTER. My mistake.

 

[ehb5]

i am sorry but they are not credible when financed by george soros . the national academies are all liberal and push for socialist policies

as for native born criminals , we are stuck with that but illegals we are not stuck with and i dont care if they commit a lower amount of crime , (which they do not according to arizona's research ) the fact is they shouldnt be here to commit any more crimes then the first one they committed coming here in the first place

Do you have any proof of George Soros having anything to do with either of the organizations I cited?

And even if he did - can you show me why that is a massive problem?

Im not sure who you think George Soros is but he isnt magically controlling every source of information you dont like.

Do you have a source or proof that the national academies are "all liberal and push for socialist policies"? And if you do...why do you have a problem with that but not have a problem with your blatantly far right anti immigration source?

 

[ehb5]

As I mentioned in another post, if it did not take months and in some cases YEARS just to get permission to come in from Mexico or some other places, I doubt we would have a whole lot of illegal immigration. (Of which we actually dont any way)

I will also point out the folly that they ar taking jobs way from deserving unskilled American workers. In todays USA, being an unskilled laborer is a choice if you were born here. Because every American citizen is afforded the ability to go to school and become said skilled laborer. So those that think our society should be based on merit alone, should have no problem with an unskilled laborer willing to work twice as hard for half the pay getting the position. As the born American had every opportunity to become a skilled worker and not need that job to begin with.

Also...these are the same people that would tell that unskilled worker to get off his ass and work if he asked for a little help to get going.

I cant keep track of when some people think we're supposed to care about unskilled workers and when we arent.

 

[Sharkinva]

Also...these are the same people that would tell that unskilled worker to get off his ass and work if he asked for a little help to get going.

I cant keep track of when some people think we're supposed to care about unskilled workers and when we arent.

These are also the same people that see no problem with companies off shoring jobs that could and should be done by Americans, and think its ok that we import nearly half our fresh produce from other countries.

So we need to grow the people here, and the food needs to be migrant.

 

[gkekoa]

Thats true. But it doesnt mean that we cant assess sources credibility. Bias does not automatically mean its non credible but some sources ARE non credible.

Absolutely assess the credibility. Look at the data provided instead of the source. Make your own conclusions instead of having people say trust me.

 

[gkekoa]

Considering the vast vast majority of muslims and Muslim immigrants have no ties to terrorism it's quite similar.

You can defend it all you want. The man wanted/wants to keep an entire religious group out of the country because he is at best reactionary and at worst a bigot.

Read the Quran. Look at the history of Islam. There is no comparison between Christianity and Islam.

The man wanted to stop Muslims from coming in until we could actually set up a vetting program that works. Everybody is reactionary to an extent. If you have never said something in the heat of the moment, then you are the best person on this board. He never looked for legislation to stop all Muslims from coming in. He pushed for legislation to stop people from certain countries from coming in...the same countries Obama used.

 

[Sharkinva]

Read the Quran. Look at the history of Islam. There is no comparison between Christianity and Islam.

The man wanted to stop Muslims from coming in until we could actually set up a vetting program that works. Everybody is reactionary to an extent. If you have never said something in the heat of the moment, then you are the best person on this board. He never looked for legislation to stop all Muslims from coming in. He pushed for legislation to stop people from certain countries from coming in...the same countries Obama used.

Have you actually read the Quran?? The whole thing, not just the blurbs you see on Fox news?? See I have read both the Quran, the Old Testament and the New Testament. IN fact, if you have read and remember your bible, what America has and continues to do to people of color should appaul you.. unless of course the rules dont apply in that particular instance.