Penguins offseason thread

[Darkstone42]

Hey Doobee, I'd like to ask a question, and I hope it won't come off the wrong way.

Saw an article (I think it was on Yahoo Sports) about the demise of the Bruins. And it talked about how they went "all in" on this season for the Cup. And among other things, it mentioned how they brought in Jerome Iginla dirt cheap.

I understand why the Bruins may have invested so much against their cap. But part of me doesn't understand the rationale that some NHL management front offices have. They preach about how it's a team sport, but then overpay for the stars. Which then straps the salaries of the rest of the team. Dale Tallon did this in Chicago too. And so did Bob Pulford before him.

Part of this is stemmed at Iginla. Do I feel sorry for him? Not at all. Because it could be argued that due to his "featured" salary in Calgary, that limited the Flames front office from bringing in better players. And now in the twilight of his career, fans of the NHL should feel sad for him because he hasn't won a Cup? He put his past teams in that position! It's his own fault!

So is this where the Penguins are, tied to contracts for Crosby and Malkin?

I disagree with the entire sentiment, really. The market sets player values, not the players. When it comes down to it, paying Iginla a featured salary, as you call it, should not make it impossible to build a team around him given competent management. The Flames did not have competent management, misevaluated a number of players, and caught themselves between a rebuild and a retool, which is always a recipe for disaster.

Crosby and Malkin are major impact players who strengthen their supporting cast. They increase the value of their linemates. And the Penguins, when healthy, did not lack depth this year in their everyday lineup. Bylsma mismanaged it. We could have rolled four very good lines, but Danny insisted on skating inferior players. That was the roster problem.

If it was just Sid & Geno that would be great. What kills us are the contracts of Letang, Scuderi, Kunitz, Dupuis, & possibly Neal. It's a front loaded team with no back line depth, which is why I believe we had to let Shero go. At the end of the day he sacrificed our depth so we could have 2 strong top lines. When those players failed this team basically became useless. We need to dump Letang, Scuderi, Kunitz, & Dupuis IMO. Was very foolish of Shero to give them those contracts last summer. That's what cost him his job IMO.

Dupuis was a bit overpaid, Letang was overpaid, and Scuderi got market value based on what he had been doing the past several years, but ended up not panning out, but the Kunitz and Neal contracts were bargains.

We can still afford reasonable depth as long as we use our minor league system. Based on projected salaries, if we can dump Scuderi (the only one we need to, because he's the only one providing no value), we can go into next season comfortably under the cap with this kind of lineup:

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Zlobin-Malkin-Neal
Dupuis-Sutter-Goc
Gibbons-Vitale-Megna

Letang-Maatta
Martin-Dumoulin
Pouliot-Despres

Or work in Samuelsson or Harrington or someone based on performance/readiness.

Adams as a healthy scratch, with someone like Sill or Harry Z or something, Bortuzzo the scratched D-man.

Fleury and Zatkoff in the cage.

That's four good lines and three high-upside d-pairings. At the very least, we can audition guys this way to see what assets we already have. Draft well this year and next, and we'll have some information on what sorts of pieces we may have to address next year in free agency.

Based on what I project guys to get, this lineup is about 4 million under the cap. There's a little flexibility here.

I see no reason to clean house roster-wise. It would be a waste of assets and a waste of a year we could be competing. This gives us a chance to see what kind of talent we already have while also giving us some wiggle room in the trade market if we need it, or in free agency next year. Stay out of the free agent market this year, aside from depth guys or something, look to dump Scuderi (I do think someone could take him under the right circumstance or incentives) but otherwise stay rather inactive in the trade market.

This is a good hockey team. We should take advantage of that.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

I disagree with the entire sentiment, really. The market sets player values, not the players. When it comes down to it, paying Iginla a featured salary, as you call it, should not make it impossible to build a team around him given competent management. The Flames did not have competent management, misevaluated a number of players, and caught themselves between a rebuild and a retool, which is always a recipe for disaster.

Crosby and Malkin are major impact players who strengthen their supporting cast. They increase the value of their linemates. And the Penguins, when healthy, did not lack depth this year in their everyday lineup. Bylsma mismanaged it. We could have rolled four very good lines, but Danny insisted on skating inferior players. That was the roster problem.



Dupuis was a bit overpaid, Letang was overpaid, and Scuderi got market value based on what he had been doing the past several years, but ended up not panning out, but the Kunitz and Neal contracts were bargains.

We can still afford reasonable depth as long as we use our minor league system. Based on projected salaries, if we can dump Scuderi (the only one we need to, because he's the only one providing no value), we can go into next season comfortably under the cap with this kind of lineup:

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Zlobin-Malkin-Neal
Dupuis-Sutter-Goc
Gibbons-Vitale-Megna

Letang-Maatta
Martin-Dumoulin
Pouliot-Despres

Or work in Samuelsson or Harrington or someone based on performance/readiness.

Adams as a healthy scratch, with someone like Sill or Harry Z or something, Bortuzzo the scratched D-man.

Fleury and Zatkoff in the cage.

That's four good lines and three high-upside d-pairings. At the very least, we can audition guys this way to see what assets we already have. Draft well this year and next, and we'll have some information on what sorts of pieces we may have to address next year in free agency.

Based on what I project guys to get, this lineup is about 4 million under the cap. There's a little flexibility here.

I see no reason to clean house roster-wise. It would be a waste of assets and a waste of a year we could be competing. This gives us a chance to see what kind of talent we already have while also giving us some wiggle room in the trade market if we need it, or in free agency next year. Stay out of the free agent market this year, aside from depth guys or something, look to dump Scuderi (I do think someone could take him under the right circumstance or incentives) but otherwise stay rather inactive in the trade market.

This is a good hockey team. We should take advantage of that.

I'm all for bringing up the prospects but we have to clean house. Those assets you speak of are just liabilities. Time to go back to being the 2003-04 Pens & focus on getting those bad contacts off the books. Letang, Kunitz, Dupuis, & Scuderi could all be easily replaced. If we could dump their contracts (even for 7th round picks), it would be totally worth it.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Doobster's plan for next season:
-fire Bylsma
-hire Hynes
-trade away the big contracts except Sid & Geno
-call up the prospects
-have Sid & Geno fake injuries & sit out the season
-draft Connor McDavid

Rebuilding will be easy after that.

 

[Darkstone42]

I'm all for bringing up the prospects but we have to clean house. Those assets you speak of are just liabilities. Time to go back to being the 2003-04 Pens & focus on getting those bad contacts off the books. Letang, Kunitz, Dupuis, & Scuderi could all be easily replaced. If we could dump their contracts (even for 7th round picks), it would be totally worth it.

How are Kunitz and Dupuis liabilities, exactly? Kunitz is a 30-goal/year type of player with us making under $4 million/year. That's really good value, and he's a good player. Dupuis is a good two-way player who got a freak injury this year. He's good defensively, has some speed to him, and can pot 20 goals a year. Maybe those guys are "easily" replaced, but not necessarily for their contracts.

Letang is overpaid, but his upside is massive, and we saw what he can do when his partner's not terrible when he and Martin were excellent together in the playoffs.

Scuderi's contract is terrible, and he's not a very good player anymore, so yeah, dump him for a 7th if you can. But trading guys like Letang, Dupuis, and Kunitz for nothing would be an atrocious mismanagement of resources. You don't just get rid of assets. It's not how you run a hockey team. If you trade someone, you seek fair value at the worst.

We can build a really good, deep lineup with three of those four contracts on the books, and with those players and their talents involved. Why overcomplicate things and cost yourself an entire year of competing by having a knee-jerk fire sale with no intention of recouping value? If a GM did that to a competitor, he would be rightfully fired on the spot. Or before he got the chance. Because he would be terrible at his job.

 

[scoutyjones2]

How dare anyone call the Dupers contract bad. He was the missing piece to the puzzle this year in the playoffs!

 

[Darkstone42]

Let's get some perspective.

The Penguins were one win away from going to the ECF for the second consecutive year. They are not a team who missed the playoffs. They are not a team devoid of talent but swimming in salary. They're a good team with a couple big numbers on the books and one dead-weight player making too much money.

This is not a time to panic and give up on next season. We don't have to rebuild. Most of the pieces are in place. We just need to retool and maximize the talent we have.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

How are Kunitz and Dupuis liabilities, exactly? Kunitz is a 30-goal/year type of player with us making under $4 million/year. That's really good value, and he's a good player. Dupuis is a good two-way player who got a freak injury this year. He's good defensively, has some speed to him, and can pot 20 goals a year. Maybe those guys are "easily" replaced, but not necessarily for their contracts.

Letang is overpaid, but his upside is massive, and we saw what he can do when his partner's not terrible when he and Martin were excellent together in the playoffs.

Scuderi's contract is terrible, and he's not a very good player anymore, so yeah, dump him for a 7th if you can. But trading guys like Letang, Dupuis, and Kunitz for nothing would be an atrocious mismanagement of resources. You don't just get rid of assets. It's not how you run a hockey team. If you trade someone, you seek fair value at the worst.

We can build a really good, deep lineup with three of those four contracts on the books, and with those players and their talents involved. Why overcomplicate things and cost yourself an entire year of competing by having a knee-jerk fire sale with no intention of recouping value? If a GM did that to a competitor, he would be rightfully fired on the spot. Or before he got the chance. Because he would be terrible at his job.

Kunitz is a byproduct of Sid. Anyone could do what Kunitz does. Take Sid away & Kuni's production drops by at least 50%, ditto for Dupuis.

 

[Darkstone42]

Kunitz is a byproduct of Sid. Anyone could do what Kunitz does. Take Sid away & Kuni's production drops by at least 50%, ditto for Dupuis.

Kunitz was a good player (not as good as he is now, no, but good) before we got him. Dupuis was useful at least, if not prominent in the scoring department.

And not everyone who has been put with Sid has done the job, so clearly not anyone can do it.

I just don't see what the point of dumping them could possibly be.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Let's get some perspective.

The Penguins were one win away from going to the ECF for the second consecutive year. They are not a team who missed the playoffs. They are not a team devoid of talent but swimming in salary. They're a good team with a couple big numbers on the books and one dead-weight player making too much money.

This is not a time to panic and give up on next season. We don't have to rebuild. Most of the pieces are in place. We just need to retool and maximize the talent we have.

There's no panic here, but if we're going to rebuild might as well go all out, no need to half ass it. Think 1983-84 & 2003-04, we seized the opportunities presented to us & won 3 Cups as a result. The same opportunity presents itself again. Time to sieze the moment.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Kunitz was a good player (not as good as he is now, no, but good) before we got him. Dupuis was useful at least, if not prominent in the scoring department.

And not everyone who has been put with Sid has done the job, so clearly not anyone can do it.

I just don't see what the point of dumping them could possibly be.

Opens up cap space, assures that we get a good draft pick in a very good draft year, & gives opportunities to younger players.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

How dare anyone call the Dupers contract bad. He was the missing piece to the puzzle this year in the playoffs!

I love Dup as much as anyone, but it's time to part ways. Sorry scouty.

 

[scoutyjones2]

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Dude this upcoming season will be painful, but it will be worth it if we could get our hands on #97. Just trust me on this

 

[mtm166]

I think the Pens are officially a circus act now. I have no idea why Disco is still technically around. This was handled terribly and it came off like mass confusion. Yeah, that's really going to attract a lot of GM candidates...i've thought about all this now and I think the biggest reason the Pens are where they are right now is because of successive years of poor drafting and horrible player development. Not that Disco didn't have issues of his own, i'm just trying to separate out the biggest thing. That is the single biggest reason we have no depth and had to pay higher salaries to guys like Duper, Scuderi, and Kunitz. Not that those guys are terrible (maybe Scuds is) but there was no real option other than to sign these guys to support the core of Sid, Geno, and Tanger. Absolutely no players were developed that would have kept costs a bit more in check, allowing the Pens to spend a little more on their bottom 6 forwards. In my mind that lack of bottom 6 depth was the reason they lost the series, the Rangers didn't have to worry one bit about those guys and they relentlessly wore down our top six. No development leads to overpaying older guys leads to overall unbalanced roster composition.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

More I think about it, the more I like the idea of keeping Dico on the hot seat. If he messes up at any point during the season, he's gone, and we got John Hynes waiting in the wing. Besides, who is out there that's worth getting?

Barry Trotz? IDK what makes Barry Trotz a good replacement. He's missed the playoffs more often than he's made it. He was never able to implement any sort of offensive system in Nashville either. Good defensive coach, but that's all he did. Don't expect him to take us to the next level. Would rather keep Dan Bylsma than hire Barry Trotz.

John Tortorella? Um, no thanks. He would get everyone injured and create a mutiny in the locker room. Not to mention the media sideshow. Would much rather have Dan Bylsma than hire John Tortorella.

Best to keep him on board until someone better comes around, or keep him around until he screws up and immediately put John Hynes in there.

I don't think it was stupid to keep Disco after all. The current coaching pool just isn't that impressive.

 

[thehobocop]

Barry Trotz? IDK what makes Barry Trotz a good replacement. He's missed the playoffs more often than he's made it. He was never able to implement any sort of offensive system in Nashville either. Good defensive coach, but that's all he did. Don't expect him to take us to the next level. Would rather keep Dan Bylsma than hire Barry Trotz.



I don't think it was stupid to keep Disco after all. The current coaching pool just isn't that impressive.

Barry Trotz has never had anyting close to the kind of offensive players that the Pens currently have. . Most of those Nashville teams were downright awful and he managed to make them respectable most years. Hell for most of the years Trotz was there, Martin Erat was the teams leading point scorer, that goes to show what kind of offensive talent he had to work with. I'm not sure that Trotz is the right fit for the Pens, but he certainly not a bad coach.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Barry Trotz has never had anyting close to the kind of offensive players that the Pens currently have. . Most of those Nashville teams were downright awful and he managed to make them respectable most years. Hell for most of the years Trotz was there, Martin Erat was the teams leading point scorer, that goes to show what kind of offensive talent he had to work with. I'm not sure that Trotz is the right fit for the Pens, but he certainly not a bad coach.

I just don't think it's worth firing Bylsma for Trotz, doesn't seem like we would gain anything there. We would basically trade in an offensive minded system with little emphasis on defense in exchange for a defensive minded system with little emphasis on offense. Would rather have a coach with a amore balanced approach.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

Anyone look at the draft prospects?

I think we should draft Brendan Lemieux, Claude Lemieux's kid, we need someone with a mean streak, and I think this kid's got it.

 

[stealth]

Anyone look at the draft prospects?

I think we should draft Brendan Lemieux, Claude Lemieux's kid, we need someone with a mean streak, and I think this kid's got it.

thought you said Bylsma was going to go? I knew he wasnt if Sid is taking his back.....good for Sid, I like him more now!

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

thought you said Bylsma was going to go? I knew he wasnt if Sid is taking his back.....good for Sid, I like him more now!

That has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Try again, stealth.