OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[Rvnight18]

I feel embarrassed that I'm having trouble recognizing sarcasm -- given my screen name -- but please tell me this conspiracy post is a joke. And the bill this year he supported would have expanded mandatory background checks to gun shows and online sales. That's hardly "taking away guns."

They wanted to ban all semi auto weapons. That is taking guns out of American hands.

 

[Rvnight18]

That's some Freudian shit if I've ever seen it.

There was a witness who said he saw Martin on top, seemingly throwing punches down. There were other witnesses who said Zimmerman was on top. There was no witness to how the altercation began.

There was only one eye witness.

 

[fredmccallyRTR]

Why does everyone on MSNBC have a lisp?

 

[threelittleturds]

Or maybe, you know, he was afraid that he was being followed at night by some sketchy guy. Maybe he tried to lose Zimmerman but couldn't, at which point he turned to confront Zimmerman. Crazy, I realize. Especially given that Zimmerman reported on the 911 call that Martin was running.

Listening to the phone recording. Martin noticed that Zimmerman was following him, so he came closer to check it out. Then Martin took off running, and Zimmerman got out of his car and ran after him. The cops asked if he was following him and told him they don't need him to do that. He kept running, and then he lost him... because the cop asked him where he lived and he gave his address then Zimmerman said, "Oh Crap, I don't want to give it out cause I don't know where this kid is".

Not really sure how people can still see Zimmerman as the victim if he chased someone who was running to get away from him after realizing he was being followed. Zimmerman wasn't a cop, and had no authority to try and run someone down.

Self defense to me is when you're minding your own business and then someone attacks you... it sure isn't when you're playing cop, chasing after people you deem suspicious, and then shooting them in the eventual confrontation that you initiated by chasing after them when they tried to get away from you.

 

[yossarian]

They wanted to ban all semi auto weapons. That is taking guns out of American hands.

So did Reagan

PolitiFact Georgia | Did Reagan support an assault-weapons ban?

Before this thread now devolves into gun control, I'll just say that banning this type of weapon still allows for a huge percentage of firearms to be held by the American public -- to go along with our bread and circuses.

 

[NickVT10]

They wanted to ban all semi auto weapons. That is taking guns out of American hands.

Not sure if that is true... I may be wrong but they wanted to ban Assault weapons and high capacity magazines, nothing about semi automatics...

 

[Kinzu]

They did both have a right to do what they were doing. I haven't disputed that.

How did they come face to face? My understanding is that Martin eluded Zimmerman and came back to confront him. That's the easy answer that ignores the fact that Martin was a human and not a robot or character in a video game. He had emotions and would at times act on them. I think we can all acknowledge that in tense situation we can all get emotional and make poor decisions.

An alternative answer is that Zimmerman caused the face by face through a series of poor decisions:
1. Ignoring the advice of the 911 operator and continuing to pursue Martin.
2. Getting out of his vehicle to conduct a foot pursuit.
3. At no point while following Martin did he choose to speak to him.

To me, the 3rd poor decision on Zimmerman's part is the biggest. The first two are both results of suspicion. I can understand that. I might even do the same thing in his shoes. However, I would absolutely address Martin and ask what he is doing. Now, it may come down to how comfortable one is in the situation. I'm a high school teacher in an area with a (relatively) high crime rate with significant drug issues and low socio-economic standing. I interact with "thugs" that I know have committed various crimes on a daily basis and am comfortable doing so. I know how to talk to them.Zimmerman may not.

However, by not speaking to Martin (if he was uncomfortable talking to a kid who fit the description of a burglar and had 4 inches on him face to face, he could have done it from his car), he created a situation where Martin was uncomfortable, and very possibly (probably?) worried about his own safety.

To expound on that a bit, earlier in the thread it someone (jarrod I believe) was posting some things that go to the character of Trayvon Martin (tweets, facebook messages etc) that suggest he was into drugs and looking to get a gun. This indicates that Martin may have been hanging out, or at least interacting, with some shady people. As he walks down the street, alone, late at night he is followed by a man in a vehicle. The man gets out of the vehicle to continue the pursuit while talking on the phone (about Martin, though he likely couldn't hear the conversation). This man continues to follow him, but at no point says anything.

I think this justifies a fear for his safety on Martin's part. To this point Martin has done nothing wrong. He, from what I understand, though most of my knowledge on the case comes from this thread so I'm being purposefully vague, eludes Zimmerman and returns to confront him. There's Martin's only mistake.

Unless you consider being a black teenager out at night in a somewhat affluent neighbourhood to be a mistake.

Yeah Mac I would venture to guess that Zimmerman got out of the car to keep eyes on Martin until the cops showed up. Martin maybe realizing he was being followed took a path that Zimmerman couldn't follow from his car.

The difference in the two's character comes into play now. Martin was probably not afraid to confront Zimmerman. A lot of teenagers have that invincible syndrome were they just don't believe bad things will happen. Martin may have also thought of himself as a bit of tough guy giving his size and taking into account his tweets and what not.

Zimmerman on the hand being a fairly short guy was probably not expecting a face to face confrontation. When the two met Martin might have aggressively questioned what the hell Zimmerman was doing. Zimmerman now face to face with someone he fears as a dangerous burglar is to scared to respond. Maybe Martin got a little physical and pushed Zimmerman causing him to fall down, or maybe Zimmerman tried to turn and run. At some point though things supposedly got physical between the two and one of them went for the gun.

I could see Zimmerman pulling the gun out in fear and shooting without asking questions. I could also see Martin noticing the gun and going for it to disarm what he see's now as a major threat. I don't believe at any point and time did either of these 2 guys ever realize their confrontation was the result of mistaken identity. I believe they both in the heat of the moment held to the belief of who they thought the other person was and the situation escalated from there before anything could be explained.

It's an unfortunate situation they both ended up being in and sadly cost them both their lives. Sure Zimmerman could have just stayed in his car and avoided the whole situation, but everything is always easier to see clearly in hindsight. If someone tells you it's prom night and the roads could be dangerous so you should avoid going out at night, but then you decide to go out and get hit by a drunk driver are you at fault for ignoring prior advice on the situation?

Zimmerman was advised not pursue, but in the heat moment decided he didn't want to lose track of a potential robber. He wanted to make sure right then and there he protected his neighborhood and made sure this person did not get away before the cops showed up. He knew it was a risk to pursue, but he thought he could handle it. The same way the person in my scenario above though they could handle going out despite knowing the roads could be dangerous. You tell yourself nothing bad will happen and then it does.

 

[TobyTyler]

And it's an all white planet in "fear of a black planet" to quote public enemy.

Those in power are always reluctant to share it. It's not just white people.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

He had a concealed weapon that he carries all the time. I would agree with you if it was something he had on him that wasn't normal practice for him.

Yes, I forgot to address that at the end of your post. He has a concealed weapon on him for protection. It's legally allowed. He doesn't go around shooting people all the time. He does seem to use it when someone is beating his head into pavement.

The mainstream media salivated over a legally concealed handgun shooting in a racially motivated case. Why did the media choose to label him as a white-hispanic instead of a hispanic-white? If he had been turned into a human vegetable we don't even hear anything about this case at all. There are plenty of murder trial cases that lack the racial issue that could be blasted all over TV, but they don't have any political agenda that they can use. This case only got to the national level because it has those political agendas.

 

[yossarian]

Those in power are always reluctant to share it. It's not just white people.

I don't disagree with that, Animal Farm was a brilliant book for many reasons.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Yeah Mac I would venture to guess that Zimmerman got out of the car to keep eyes on Martin until the cops showed up. Martin maybe realizing he was being followed took a path that Zimmerman couldn't follow from his car.

The difference in the two's character comes into play now. Martin was probably not afraid to confront Zimmerman. A lot of teenagers have that invincible syndrome were they just don't believe bad things will happen. Martin may have also thought of himself as a bit of tough guy giving his size and taking into account his tweets and what not.

Zimmerman on the hand being a fairly short guy was probably not expecting a face to face confrontation. When the two met Martin might have aggressively questioned what the hell Zimmerman was doing. Zimmerman now face to face with someone he fears as a dangerous burglar is to scared to respond. Maybe Martin got a little physical and pushed Zimmerman causing him to fall down, or maybe Zimmerman tried to turn and run. At some point though things supposedly got physical between the two and one of them went for the gun.

I could see Zimmerman pulling the gun out in fear and shooting without asking questions. I could also see Martin noticing the gun and going for it to disarm what he see's now as a major threat. I don't believe at any point and time did either of these 2 guys ever realize their confrontation was the result of mistaken identity. I believe they both in the heat of the moment held to the belief of who they thought the other person was and the situation escalated from there before anything could be explained.

It's an unfortunate situation they both ended up being in and sadly cost them both their lives. Sure Zimmerman could have just stayed in his car and avoided the whole situation, but everything is always easier to see clearly in hindsight. If someone tells you it's prom night and the roads could be dangerous so you should avoid going out at night, but then you decide to go out and get hit by a drunk driver are you at fault for ignoring prior advice on the situation?

Zimmerman was advised not pursue, but in the heat moment decided he didn't want to lose track of a potential robber. He wanted to make sure right then and there he protected his neighborhood and made sure this person did not get away before the cops showed up. He knew it was a risk to pursue, but he thought he could handle it. The same way the person in my scenario above though they could handle going out despite knowing the roads could be dangerous. You tell yourself nothing bad will happen and then it does.

According to a witness TM was on top of Zimmerman in MMA ground and pound position, and Zimmerman was reportedly calling out for help. It's a little more than supposedly got physical. Zimmerman supposedly got his nose busted.

 

[TobyTyler]

I don't disagree with that, Animal Farm was a brilliant book for many reasons.

It was. Orwell was a great mind.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Definitely. And I'd have no problem doing it since you were in the wrong wanting to start a physical confrontation with me. Guns are the great equalizer when bullies, which your opinions on this subject lead me to believe you are, get aggressive. I have a feeling you are a big guy; am I wrong?

BTW thanks for letting me know I "am not a man". That explains a lot of my confusion on the subject.

I am not a bully. Don't mistake someone who is willing to get in someones face when being pushed for a bully. I keep saying that a confrontation does not mean a fight. I said fight because you said you would shoot me. I have broken up more fights than I have ever been in. I am 6'2" (hover just under 200 pounds) have boxed, trained Muay Thai, Krav Maga and Sambo for most of my life so I am capable in a fight. I train however for the sport and challenge of it. I don't like fighting, but I will if I have to.I do value life. I don't even kill flies. I once sprained my ankle jumping off my stairs and saw I was gonna land on a snail and moved at the last second. Getting aggressive is not justification for shooting someone. And like I said, you can be in a confrontation without fighting, but if there is a fight, there is no need to end someones life over it.

 

[jonvi]

I am not a bully. Don't mistake someone who is willing to get in someones face when being pushed for a bully. I keep saying that a confrontation does not mean a fight. I said fight because you said you would shoot me. I have broken up more fights than I have ever been in. I am 6'2" (hover just under 200 pounds) have boxed, trained Muay Thai, Krav Maga and Sambo for most of my life so I am capable in a fight. I train however for the sport and challenge of it. I don't like fighting, but I will if I have to.I do value life. I don't even kill flies. I once sprained my ankle jumping off my stairs and saw I was gonna land on a snail and moved at the last second. Getting aggressive is not justification for shooting someone. And like I said, you can be in a confrontation without fighting, but if there is a fight, there is no need to end someones life over it.[/quote]


I don't know man....tell that to this guy.

 

[Rvnight18]

So did Reagan

PolitiFact Georgia | Did Reagan support an assault-weapons ban?

Before this thread now devolves into gun control, I'll just say that banning this type of weapon still allows for a huge percentage of firearms to be held by the American public -- to go along with our bread and circuses.

No it allows bolt action, revolvers, and single loads. Most guns are semi auto. And I don't belong to any political party.

 

[Rvnight18]

Not sure if that is true... I may be wrong but they wanted to ban Assault weapons and high capacity magazines, nothing about semi automatics...

The assault weapons were semi auto. The AR, mini 14 and the rest are semi auto or one shot per trigger pull.

 

[Rvnight18]

In a small town near where I live, a kid punched another kid on the face, knocked the kid out, fell backwards and his head hit the curb... Killing him. I don't care what anyone says, if your head is being smashed against the concrete and you are getting your face beat by fist, you have evey right to fear for your life. It only takes one hit sometimes. Now I am not saying if you get punched once to shoot, just that you can't judge someone's state of mind in those situations

 

[tallglassofwater007]

A lot of people are painting TM as someone who's just minding his own business and walking through a neighborhood at night and he gets stalked. Look at this through Zimmerman's perspective. He was driving through his neighborhood and sees some shady guy in a hoody scoping out houses and acting erratic like he was on drugs. He wants to keep tabs on this guy because he fits the profile of someone who would rob a house. Look in to the history of Zimmerman - he's not remotely racist. He's profiling someone fitting the description of a robber. That is your punk.

Keeping tabs one someone like that can be labeled as stalking, but it's a loaded word that gets twisted around for what he was doing. He's keeping his eyes on a suspicious person. And he's continuing to trail the guy after calling 911 because he anticipates this guy is about to flee. The cops probably won't be able to track him down once he takes off. That is why he's still following him.

For the motive for confrontation he seemed to have a motive to talk to the guy based on getting out of the car. But it's really hard to claim he had a motive for a physical confrontation at that point with this guy. Remember, he was just on the phone with the cops who are on their way.Why would you call the cops right before getting out of a car to get in a fight? Does that make any sense? What makes sense is he got out of the car to talk to the guy and ask him what he was doing. Why does he not have the right to do that?

I am not saying he got out there to get in a fight. If he was looking for a fight, he wouldn't have a gun. He wasn't getting out to shoot him, but that is what happened. You say his history shows he is not racist, but that doesn't matter. His history shows that he is a very suspicious man (and he does call the cops on black people a lot) calling the police 46 times in the last couple years. That seems like a paranoid man (hence the gun in the first place and overreacting to getting beat up so he shot the kid) I don't believe what he says about Martins behavior because this is a guy who is quick to call the police for suspicious behavior. He called the cops on people going through bins looking for recycling. Looking at his history, doing anything in his neighborhood is suspicious, especially if you are black.

 

[TobyTyler]

I am not a bully. Don't mistake someone who is willing to get in someones face when being pushed for a bully. I keep saying that a confrontation does not mean a fight. I said fight because you said you would shoot me. I have broken up more fights than I have ever been in. I am 6'2" (hover just under 200 pounds) have boxed, trained Muay Thai, Krav Maga and Sambo for most of my life so I am capable in a fight. I train however for the sport and challenge of it. I don't like fighting, but I will if I have to.I do value life. I don't even kill flies. I once sprained my ankle jumping off my stairs and saw I was gonna land on a snail and moved at the last second. Getting aggressive is not justification for shooting someone. And like I said, you can be in a confrontation without fighting, but if there is a fight, there is no need to end someones life over it.

Fair enough. I like what I'm hearing.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

We don't know Martin was actually looking into windows. Police records show that Zimmerman called police 46 times in the last few years to report suspicious behavior. And he used the terms "suspicious black people" on many occasions, and on the actual call about Martin. That seems a little over the top to me. Like a hypochondriac (with crime instead of sickness) You have that, with the fact that he was growing more and more frustrated with a couple of recent break ins, and when he tells the police that he is tired of these "fucking punks," and "assholes always getting away with it" and ...that is motive. Maybe not for murder, but for confrontation, you bet. Now if we are going off of Zimmermans word that Martin was looking into windows, then we have to believe Martins friend on the phone as well, who said that the last thing she heard was Martin asking "what are you following me for" and his phone went dead. There could be any number of reactions here that we will never know. But that is because we will never know the other side of the story. But what all of the things I have put down tells me, is that this guy had a chip on his shoulder and was ready to take the law into his own hands. Why else would he have a gun?

(sorry, this got quick at the end because my daughter is waking up and I have to go)

I wanted to address this point too. There's a rational reason for all the calls to police over the past few years because he is an appointed neighborhood watch guy who actively surveys the neighborhood. Someone doing that would have more calls into police than a typical person.