OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[MHSL82]

To be more honest, and less snarky, I don't think it would dissuade others because, as I said earlier, those that commit robberies are generally desperate, or meticulously planned. Without any evidence, I'm going to assume that most liquor store (and convenience store and those "types" of places) are rarely hit by the meticulous planning sort. Those guys, I assume, tend to go more for places that are going to have lots and lots of money, not a few hundred bucks at most. So we're looking at guys that are in desperate situations (or strung out, although that's probably a desperate situation in its own right). I don't think anyone that is in a position where attempting to rob a liquor store is going to be dissuaded by someone else failing to rob a liquor store. I think it raises the chances of the clerk and legitimate customers getting shot for a short period of time after the death because they will be even more on edge than your typical liquor store robber. Any slight move by anyone in the store could result in shots fired.

If, for whatever reason, it is the meticulous type planning to rob a liquor store, they look at the guy who was killed and decide "I'm planning this out, so that won't happen to me. If the guy reaches below the counter, I'll shoot him. I'll make sure all the customers are at the till where I can see them. . . and so on."

Going to law school, I often heard about deterrence and how precedence told people how the law was to be applied so they knew how to comply with the law/rulings. But I always thought, where do the potential criminals find these things. Do they have a LexisNexis/Westlaw casebook and web subscription to figure what can and cannot be done? Just kidding. Within a local community or perhaps the nation, big things can be shown, but people misinterpret the interpretation either due to media, awareness, education, whatnot. But overall, you are going to do it unless you are against it, whether by law, opportunity, moral values, being convinced by others, etc. I don't think people know these things unless, like you say, they plan.

 

[wartyOne]

Thats besides the point Jarrod. How many fist fights have you been in to where you feared for your life? can you answer that honestly?

I have been jumped 2 on 6, 5 on 20, and the most challenging, 1 on 15. When those 15 guys got me to the ground, not ONCE!, did i fear for my life. my only thoughts were, which one will be man enough to fight me one on one after?

Bullshit.

Sorry. But this is clearly bullshit.

 

[wartyOne]

If Zimmerman would've stayed in the suv he wouldn't have been able to be attacked. Once he followed, then exited his vehicle he was now being the aggressor.

How would you react if a car followed you for a while, then a man parks and gets out the suv looking for you?

How do you know that there wasn't a verbal dispute first? Because a man fighting murder said the dead person ran up and punched him?

I wouldn't react by jumping and beating him into the ground.

This is indefensible, even by idiot standards.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Anyone in their right mind has to believe that when you follow someone who you don't know for blocks and then get out of your car to further pursue them, that it will most likely end up in a fight. I don't buy the fact that Zimmerman didn't think that a fight could happen, I don't buy that for half a second. He would have to be severely mentally challenged to believe someone like that.

What was necessary to preserve his life would be to keep his ass in the car and let the police do their jobs, if he was SO worried about preserving his life, he should be out chasing "criminals" and attempting to fight crime.

Completely agree. If he didn't think there would be any altercations, why did he have a gun in the first place?

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Here's some thoughts. The media painted the terms to make the guy look guilty. Child (17 year old?). Punks = Black Punks. Stalking (observing some crazy dude). They invent a hard rule that a neighborhood watch guy suddenly can't watch his own neighborhood anymore after calling 911. Just because the dispatcher told him he doesn't need to keep an eye on the guy anymore, it's his judgement call. Given the circumstances of the things going on in the neighborhood with houses being hit, he was completely right to not just pass it off entirely to the cops. If he listens to the dispatcher then the police come too late and the shady looking dude acting like he's on drugs who's checking out houses on a rainy night vanishes. Keeping tabs on some a suspicious guy doesn't equate to stalking. He's keeping an eye on his neighborhood...

Then you have the argument that if he didn't get out of the car, TM doesn't die. I see how people stretch that getting out of the car = cause of murder because the media led you you to that conclusion already. They twisted terms around and created false rules that he should abide by. Getting out of the car was a catalyst for the fight but not the cause of murder. The cause of murder is being attacked and scared for your life.

On one extreme he simply gets out of the car to talk and gets pummeled. Another extreme is he jumps out and tackles TM. The framework portrayed by the media is Zimmerman stalked an innocent child, jumped out of his car to fight him, and ended up killing him unnecessarily with a gun he shouldn't have on him in the first place. The problem with their version was all of the evidence pointed to self defense.

We don't know Martin was actually looking into windows. Police records show that Zimmerman called police 46 times in the last few years to report suspicious behavior. And he used the terms "suspicious black people" on many occasions, and on the actual call about Martin. That seems a little over the top to me. Like a hypochondriac (with crime instead of sickness) You have that, with the fact that he was growing more and more frustrated with a couple of recent break ins, and when he tells the police that he is tired of these "fucking punks," and "assholes always getting away with it" and ...that is motive. Maybe not for murder, but for confrontation, you bet. Now if we are going off of Zimmermans word that Martin was looking into windows, then we have to believe Martins friend on the phone as well, who said that the last thing she heard was Martin asking "what are you following me for" and his phone went dead. There could be any number of reactions here that we will never know. But that is because we will never know the other side of the story. But what all of the things I have put down tells me, is that this guy had a chip on his shoulder and was ready to take the law into his own hands. Why else would he have a gun?

(sorry, this got quick at the end because my daughter is waking up and I have to go)

 

[yossarian]

Going to law school, I often heard about deterrence and how precedence told people how the law was to be applied so they knew how to comply with the law/rulings. But I always thought, where do the potential criminals find these things. Do they have a LexisNexis/Westlaw casebook and web subscription to figure what can and cannot be done? Just kidding. Within a local community or perhaps the nation, big things can be shown, but people misinterpret the interpretation either due to media, awareness, education, whatnot. But overall, you are going to do it unless you are against it, whether by law, opportunity, moral values, being convinced by others, etc. I don't think people know these things unless, like you say, they plan.

That's true, particularly crimes or actions that are taken under the heat of the moment or are "crimes of passion." It's difficult to imagine someone who is impulsive enough to commit certain acts slow down enough to consider the "deterrence effect." Maybe for more calculated actions, like a burglary, etc.

 

[TobyTyler]

I do think gun control has a lot to do with it. The biggest gun control issue we've had here in the last 10 years or so (the time frame I've been old enough to pay a little attention and understand) is a long gun registry in which the government wanted to pass legislation requiring all guns to be registered. Public reaction led to that not going through. Right now there is an extensive gun registry in Canada, I'm not all that familiar with the ins and outs because I don't own a gun and don't feel the need to own one.

The cry against the long gun registry was mostly from hunters who would then have to register all their hunting rifles.

I'm sure there is more to it than simply the gun control laws, but it can't be a coincidence that the countries around the world with low crime rates also have strict gun laws.

Maybe it's that people who are more willing to regulate gun ownership are also less likely to commit crimes.

Also, I understand that main talking point for those against gun control in the US is that people that shouldn't own guns will still get them despite gun control, but the evidence from other nations does not support it.

Off the top of my head, it would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between homicide rates and poverty levels. It seems to me that (note - I have done no research into this) the countries with low crime rates also have low poverty rates.

The next step in that would be investigating a connection between political ideologies. By that I mean are those against gun control also against social assistance programs? It seems to me that the countries with low crime rates also have some form of universal health care, and have for quite awhile without any controversy like there has been in the USA.

What I'm getting at here is the problem in all likelihood goes a lot deeper than gun control laws and is likely something deep within the infrastructure of the country or state.

So do I. Even though I understand the logic of the gun folks in saying that "If I'm armed, it would reduce the opportunities of bad guys to rob me or shoot me and thus crime levels would go down", all the evidence from other places that do have gun control contradicts that.

 

[TobyTyler]

Are you freaking kidding me? So are you telling me that if you are walking around at night and someone starts following you for blocks for no reason, you are just going to keep walking when they get out of their car and come at you? You are either going to run away or stop and fight because you have no idea what this person wants. Martin chose to stay and fight, sadly for Martin the other guy can't fight with his hands.

He tried to be a tough guy by fighting someone who was stalking him? Messed with the wrong person? Zimmerman was a pussy, this is the only day in age that he is considered "the wrong person", I find it funny that "the wrong person" gets his ass kicked by a teenager.

First of all, I don't believe Zimmerman "Came at him". Second, yes, if I'm walking around someone else's neighborhood with a hoodie pulled down low over my face and my pants hanging halfway off my ass I'm going to expect someone to question me. Its almost like he was daring someone to challenge him. My understanding is Martin left and then came back to confront Zimmerman; Am I wrong?

 

[TobyTyler]

HAHAHAHA ok . (by the way I used the word fuck one time)

Fair enough.

 

[TobyTyler]

Yeah, maybe if both men have a gun.


You sound like any other thug in hood, or hillbilly in the sticks. If you follow me around starting shit, regardless of the neighborhood, you better shoot me in the back before I get a hold of you because my foot is going so far up your ass the water on my knee will quench your thirst.

That is absurd. But I absolutely love your analogy of how you would kick my ass! Exactly why I'd give you the gun first. It wouldn't be hard to claim self defense when the police got there if you were laying dead but connected to me by your foot up my ass.

 

[yossarian]

So do I. Even though I understand the logic of the gun folks in saying that "If I'm armed, it would reduce the opportunities of bad guys to rob me or shoot me and thus crime levels would go down", all the evidence from other places that do have gun control contradicts that.

I was actually surprised to find this stat, I wonder if it's true. Of course it's from 2009, but still

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online
Crime: US vs UK and Canada | REB Research Blog

Anyway, there it is.

 

[TobyTyler]

Totally wrong, there was enough evidence to arrest him, and charge him, but not enough maybe to convict him under Florida's laws.

I disagree. He was only arrested long after the shooting when the government caved to pressure from black groups. The government forced the Chief of Police to make an arrest and he so outraged over it he resigned.

 

[yossarian]

I disagree. He was only arrested long after the shooting when the government caved to pressure from black groups. The government forced the Chief of Police to make an arrest and he so outraged over it he resigned.

Ok, well after 39 pages, probably neither you nor I will change our position on this.

 

[TobyTyler]

When you tell me I should think about saying a black person is making race relations worse because of past history, you are saying I shouldnt say that. It's called political correctness and that is what's responsable for making people pussies not guns.

Exactly!

 

[RoboticDreams]

I've never heard the term "White Hispanic" before, but I hear the term "Black Hispanic" all the time. Often used to describe baseball players who are black, but not from Puerto Rico, Cuba or another Latin American country.

If black Hispanic is acceptable, why not white Hispanic?

"White" and "Black" are not races nor ethnic groups. They are simply descriptions of skin colour.

A "white Hispanic" would probably be a Spaniard but not a man of mixed ethnicity. Obama is a white African American? Nobody would ever make that claim.

 

[TobyTyler]

I think it's appropriate at this time to quote the late great Bill Hicks ---"What do you say we lighten things up and talk about abortion? You know, I feel like I'm losing some of you here, and I want to win all of you back with this one. Let's talk about abortion. Let's talk about child killing and see if we can't get some chuckles rippling through the room here. Let's talk about mass murder of young, unborn children and see if we can't coalesce into one big, healthy gutlaugh. Ha ha ha ha!"

Ha ha! Put that bottle down; you've had enough.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I also saw this a couple weeks ago
Murders: The United States is 3rd in murders throughout the World!

But if you take out Chicago, Detroit, Washington D.C. and New Orleans, the United States is 4th from the bottom for murders.

(These 4 cities also have the toughest gun control laws in the United States, and are all controlled by Democrats.)

I'd be interested to see a source for that information.

 

[TobyTyler]

I wonder how things would have turned out had he done that? What would Trayvon Martin's current life state be if Zimmerman had exercised his right to go up to him and question him, rather than to just follow him around?

If Zimmerman said something along the lines of

"Hey kid, I'm with the local neighbourhood watch. Can I help you find something?"

It would have saved us 600+ posts on this board. And maybe saved a few other things as well.

Ha ha! Martin already established himself as a racist by calling Zimmerman a "creepy ass cracker" when speaking to his girlfriend. How do you think he would have taken to being questioned by this same "creepy ass crcker"?

 

[yossarian]

Ha ha! Put that bottle down; you've had enough.

"That bottle" as you so derisively put it, is the only thing that allowed me to read a lot of these posts.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Not sure how you came to this conclusion; perhaps a comprehension issue on your part? You are confused, it was Martin who did the assaulting and not Zimmerman so it would be Martin who got the gun from me.

I believe you're the one who is confused. You said "started a confrontation." Perhaps you're a little hazy on the meaning of the word.

From Merriam-Webster's definition for confrontation: a : a face-to-face meeting

Zimmerman indisputably "started the confrontation." It's not clear who made it physical.