OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[imac_21]

Not true. Dispatch asked him if he was following Martin and he said yes. They then suggested that they didn't need him to do that. They also continued to ask him about Trayvons whereabouts. As I've stated previously, how can he know Trayvons whereabouts without seeing him?

Are you serious? The only two points you seem to want to address is that Zimmerman was not ordered to stop following, and this ridiculous conversation about the definition of stalking.
I'm going to repost the situation for you to try again, and I'll even re-word the part you have such an issue with. I'll take the exact wording from the transcript. Then you can tell us what you would do. I doubt you're as big of an idiot as Zimmerman is.
________________________________________

I want everyone reading this to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes.

You are driving through a neighbourhood (upper middle class or better) as a member (captain?) of the Neighbourhood Watch.

It's fairly late at night and there has been a series of burglaries, all of which have been committed by a person or people that fit the same description.

You see someone you don't recognize walking down the street that fits the description of the burglar(s). I don't really care what races you want to apply to the neighbourhood or the burglars.

You are 5'7, 185 pounds. The person you see is 5'11. You can't accurately gauge his weight because of his clothing.

You follow him while talking to a 911 dispatcher with whom you have the following exchange AFTER being notified that police are on the way:

Dispatcher: Are you following him
You: Yeah.
Dispatcher: OK, we don't need you to do that.

______________________

Now it's your turn. What do you do from there?

Zimmerman, apparently, is not guilty of any crimes. However, he's clearly an absolute idiot and a killer.

 

[yossarian]

I agree. The murder charge was a very difficult thing to prove. A manslaughter charge however? That would have been quite easier.

They may have made a big tactical mistake in not charging manslaughter up front. If all the focus is on murder -- including meeting the elements of it, the manslaughter charge gets to be kind of an afterthought. If they (the prosecutors) had put their focus all on the manslaughter charge that might have worked.

 

[RoboticDreams]

The fact that there is such a debate going on, both here and across the country shows that there was a "case", maybe weak, but a case nonetheless. If you got a different set of jurors who knows, he might have been convicted.

Not a case based off facts. It's a case based off racial prejudice. It's a case based off implication but not tangible evidence.

 

[yossarian]

Not a case based off facts. It's a case based off racial prejudice. It's a case based off implication but not tangible evidence.

IMAC, and others have all stated enough of the facts to show that it's debatable. And by "based off racial prejudice" what do you mean by that?

 

[RoboticDreams]

IMAC, and others have all stated enough of the facts to show that it's debatable. And by "based off racial prejudice" what do you mean by that?

Simple, this has been made to be a racial case by the mainstream media when it was not. They continue to call Zimmerman a " white Hispanic." Who has ever heard of such a label? White vs black sells, that is the only reason it has been billed as such.

 

[Yoshi]

I think what really bothers me in reading this thread is not that people think he should have been acquitted (which is not the same as saying he's innocent by the way), it's that people think it's an outrage he was even charged with a crime and brought to trial. Yes, this may have been a difficult case to win -- but for those who don't work in the criminal justice system here's a bit of information -- prosecutors try "difficult" cases all the time, sometimes they even know they are difficult cases. Those cases get tried because there is a question and it should be up to a jury to decide the issue, not just the prosecuting attorney. People are acting like a prosecuting attorney should only try slam dunk cases and officers should't arrest someone unless they guarantee there will be a conviction and that just isn't the case. I've had prosecutors admit to me that their case was not as strong as they would like, but they felt that there was enough evidence there to convict and if my client was going to get a get out of jail free card it would be from the jury, not the prosecuting attorney. That's the way it works, it's not all that unusual.

Thanks for enlightening us on that, Yoss. My expertise is in medicine, but I'm always game in watching ID, Ion, and other channels that either produced syndicated or actual cases where the combination of legal and scientific evidence is used to convict people of crimes.

After reading about this case more, it just saddens me how Zimmerman wasn't even charged with manslaughter at the very least. It's almost as heinous as the Mehserle trial where he was released from prison less than 1 year of serving time for "good behavior" when the irony of his case was that he shot Oscar Grant in the back while Grant was lying face down and clearly handcuffed. If someone was following another person, they either have the decision of running or confronting the aggressor. In the case of Trayvon, he confronted Zimmerman. He may have been wrong for doing that (that's debatable), but it's clear that Zimmerman didn't have to follow him when he was even told by the dispatcher not to. And since the jury believed in Zimmerman's story of acting in self defense, well, what about Martin? Since he was being followed by a man in possession of a gun, doesn't he have the right to defend himself, too?

 

[MHSL82]

Who did he come to see? I've never heard anyone come forward and say "Martin was here to visit me". In fact, didn't the defense show that Martin knew no one in that neighborhood? And he certainly wasn't "forced" into any confrontation, all he needed to do was keep walking. Instead, he tried to be a tough guy and messed with the wrong person.

I heard that he was getting a Slurpee, but I have no idea if that's true, false, made up to illustrate innocence (was he headed to or from 7-11?).

 

[imac_21]

Simple, this has been made to be a racial case by the mainstream media when it was not. They continue to call Zimmerman a " white Hispanic." Who has ever heard of such a label? White vs black sells, that is the only reason it has been billed as such.

I've never heard the term "White Hispanic" before, but I hear the term "Black Hispanic" all the time. Often used to describe baseball players who are black, but not from Puerto Rico, Cuba or another Latin American country.

If black Hispanic is acceptable, why not white Hispanic?

"White" and "Black" are not races nor ethnic groups. They are simply descriptions of skin colour.

 

[yossarian]

Simple, this has been made to be a racial case by the mainstream media when it was not. They continue to call Zimmerman a " white Hispanic." Who has ever heard of such a label? White vs black sells, that is the only reason it has been billed as such.

This was a very horrible case under any situation, and the prosecuting attorney would have been just as vilified if he had not charged Zimmerman with any crime. I think it's a fair point to say that Zimmerman was overcharged given Florida's stand your ground law, but I don't think the decision to charge him with anything was unjustified.

 

[erckm510]

The people that say there was no case against Zimmerman are just naive or blind. Bottom line the Florida prosecution chose the wrong charge. There was a reason the jury asked about manslaughter but the prosecution put it in as an afterthought(which makes no sense) and didn't explain it in enough detail to convince the jury. So please stop the nonsense about there not being a case.

 

[MHSL82]

That's right, I forgot about that. Obama has a tendency to put his foot in his mouth. Now with his proclamation that members of the military who commit sexual assault will be punished by jail and dishonerable discharge by which he was trying to pander to the female voter, those punishments cannot be administered now because it has been determined to be "undue command influence" which is not allowed at any military trial. The guy means well but he is in so far over his head its ridiculous.

Those who don't like Obama might feel that he didn't care if it happened, he wanted to at least get that out there to win over women or whatnot politically. I have no idea of when what you said happened, happened nor the details of it. For example, I've heard people claim that he didn't care to close Guantanamo, he just promised it to gain political support. They evidenced it by stating that it hasn't been shut down and people forgot about it - that some people thought it was great to do and have never since checked to see that it hadn't.

 

[yossarian]

I think it's appropriate at this time to quote the late great Bill Hicks ---"What do you say we lighten things up and talk about abortion? You know, I feel like I'm losing some of you here, and I want to win all of you back with this one. Let's talk about abortion. Let's talk about child killing and see if we can't get some chuckles rippling through the room here. Let's talk about mass murder of young, unborn children and see if we can't coalesce into one big, healthy gutlaugh. Ha ha ha ha!"

 

[imac_21]

I think it's appropriate at this time to quote the late great Bill Hicks ---"What do you say we lighten things up and talk about abortion? You know, I feel like I'm losing some of you here, and I want to win all of you back with this one. Let's talk about abortion. Let's talk about child killing and see if we can't get some chuckles rippling through the room here. Let's talk about mass murder of young, unborn children and see if we can't coalesce into one big, healthy gutlaugh. Ha ha ha ha!"

I thought we were talking about child killing

 

[MHSL82]

Yeah, I think you should think carefully before you speak about those things, because context does matter, it's not political correctness, it's common sense. And I disagree that being thoughtful about being a white middle class man talking about a black man making race relations worse is making people "pussies", I would say that not thinking about those things makes people really thoughtless and makes race relations worse. And you can make any silly comment you want about race relations and the President, and I can call you on it and no government agency will stop you, that's what freedom of speech is all about.

I forgot if this was the post that the other poster said you used obvious sarcasm. If it is, then oops, I don't know your personality, yet.

It sounds like you are saying it's common sense not to say politically incorrect things and then saying that what was said had little to do with political correctness, just common sense. Unless it's common sense that criticizing a black president (yes, I know, half white) is automatically because of his race. Then one could say that doing so is not common sense.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Here's some thoughts. The media painted the terms to make the guy look guilty. Child (17 year old?). Punks = Black Punks. Stalking (observing some crazy dude). They invent a hard rule that a neighborhood watch guy suddenly can't watch his own neighborhood anymore after calling 911. Just because the dispatcher told him he doesn't need to keep an eye on the guy anymore, it's his judgement call. Given the circumstances of the things going on in the neighborhood with houses being hit, he was completely right to not just pass it off entirely to the cops. If he listens to the dispatcher then the police come too late and the shady looking dude acting like he's on drugs who's checking out houses on a rainy night vanishes. Keeping tabs on some a suspicious guy doesn't equate to stalking. He's keeping an eye on his neighborhood...

Then you have the argument that if he didn't get out of the car, TM doesn't die. I see how people stretch that getting out of the car = cause of murder because the media led you you to that conclusion already. They twisted terms around and created false rules that he should abide by. Getting out of the car was a catalyst for the fight but not the cause of murder. The cause of murder is being attacked and scared for your life.

On one extreme he simply gets out of the car to talk and gets pummeled. Another extreme is he jumps out and tackles TM. The framework portrayed by the media is Zimmerman stalked an innocent child, jumped out of his car to fight him, and ended up killing him unnecessarily with a gun he shouldn't have on him in the first place. The problem with their version was all of the evidence pointed to self defense.

The media actually turned one of the characters in this story into white person to fit the mold, and people are still blind to what they are actively doing. Gun issue. check. Race issue with a thrown out murder charge. Bend it a little and check it off. The reality check is that this case shouldn't even be in the national news.

 

[MHSL82]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. If Trayvon doesn't attack him, he is still among the living. I don't see why you don't understand that. Both parties made questionable decisions. It wasn't just Zimmerman.

Being a guy who doesn't resort to violence (because I know I'd get beat) would of course hurt me at times where a guy is going at me regardless, but in situations like this, it'd help me - either as Zimmerman or Trayvon. If someone followed me constantly, I would try to get somewhere public. I am not saying that's what Martin should or could have done, just saying that sometimes living to fight another day means not fighting. I know some people would consider me a pussy for that, but I'd be alive. I have learned a bit of self defense, but not much and there's no match for a gun (not that Zimmerman would shoot without a fight).

 

[MHSL82]

Not "making things worse" -- "making race relations worse", by mentioning that race in certain contexts. He is talking about issues where race can be a factor, calling attention to something is not making things worse.

I agree, but in cases where it isn't there but calling attention to it as if it were can make things worse if the falsely accused get insulted and paranoid for future relations. It's often subjective on whether it is or isn't there and the way the media portrays it one way or another could strongly affect the public's sentiment and that could make race relations worse, insofar as that issue is polarizing, making people distrust the other.

 

[yossarian]

I forgot if this was the post that the other poster said you used obvious sarcasm. If it is, then oops, I don't know your personality, yet.

It sounds like you are saying it's common sense not to say politically incorrect things and then saying that what was said had little to do with political correctness, just common sense. Unless it's common sense that criticizing a black president (yes, I know, half white) is automatically because of his race. Then one could say that doing so is not common sense.

This wasn't my sarcastic post. And I never said that any criticism of Obama was racially motivated. I'll say it again, a middle cliffs white man criticising a black man for stirring up racial animosity under these circumstances is just thoughtless.

 

[MHSL82]

I'm sorry but YOU'RE wrong. If Zimmerman doesn't follow TM, ignoring the police orders then TM would still be living. If Zimmerman wasn't a dumb punk whose only means to protect himself (since he can't fight) is to shoot someone, didn't attempt to take the law into his own hands then Martin would be alive.

I don't see why YOU don't understand this.

As Americans we have the right to walk around a neighborhood without being stalked by a stranger. Zimmerman STARTED a sequence of events that led to the death of a young kid. It isn't that hard to understand, had Zimmerman not tried to be Batman and fight crime then TM would be alive.

There are a lot of potential causes, distinguished as "but-for" cause or proximate cause, etc. Both what you say and he says is true. Either could have technically prevented either thing to happen, whether that be by deliberate decision or otherwise. Going to a concert that day or tying his shoes one minute later could have been enough to miss in time in what happened.

 

[MHSL82]

This wasn't my sarcastic post. And I never said that any criticism of Obama was racially motivated. I'll say it again, a middle cliffs white man criticising a black man for stirring up racial animosity under these circumstances is just thoughtless.

Ok, my fault. I had "opened in new tab" a few posts to quote and respond to and when I came back, I lost the train of conversation to see your point better. Thanks for the explanation.