OT: Winter Is Coming | Game of Thrones Discussion Thread

[mattola]

What was the deal with Shae? Was she full of shit from the get go? Was she just a gold digger? Was she truly hurt by Tyrion?

thats exactly how I saw it. at first I thought she was so mad that she made up that story, but when she was in Tywins bed it all came together that she was promised more from Tywin for lying about Tyrion. She was just full of shit. She should have taken those diamonds from VArys and got the hell out of there. that was painful to watch Tyrion kill her knowing how much he loved her.

 

[Clayton]

What was the deal with Shae? Was she full of shit from the get go? Was she just a gold digger? Was she truly hurt by Tyrion?

From what the show would want you to believe: not too terribly different than Bronn. Loyal to Tyrion as long as it made sense to be loyal to Tyrion

 

[Comeds]

From what the show would want you to believe: not too terribly different than Bronn. Loyal to Tyrion as long as it made sense to be loyal to Tyrion

I see your point but I think Bronn was honorable enough and not traitorous to Tyrian like I think Shae was, whatever her reasons.

 

[Clayton]

I see your point but I think Bronn was honorable enough and not traitorous to Tyrian like I think Shae was, whatever her reasons.

Bronn isn't the least bit honorable but he genuinely likes and respects Tyrion. Bronn's survival isnt in question, though. Shae's survival was in question at all times. In reality, Shae was always too good to be true for Tyrion. Imo, he just had a blind spot to whores due to his perception that his first wife was one.

 

[calsnowskier]

From what the show would want you to believe: not too terribly different than Bronn. Loyal to Tyrion as long as it made sense to be loyal to Tyrion

Bronn did not openly stab Tyrion in the back. He remained a friend and told him to his face that he would not fight for him. He even explained why... "I have been a friend to you with my life. When have you been a friend to me with your life?" (paraphrased, and it was much gentler the way he put it).

What Shae did was disgusting on every level. It could be argued that she was just getting even with Tyrion. But what he did to her was in private, with the end-purpose of saving her life. What she did was in public, with the end-purpose of ending his. Her betrayal was behind his back and with no explanation. Bronns was done to his face with explanation (and wasnt really a betrayal).

 

[Comeds]

Bronn isn't the least bit honorable but he genuinely likes and respects Tyrion. Bronn's survival isnt in question, though. Shae's survival was in question at all times. In reality, Shae was always too good to be true for Tyrion. Imo, he just had a blind spot to whores due to his perception that his first wife was one.

I just meant in regards to Tyrion.

 

[Clayton]

What Shae did was disgusting on every level.

Sure but what leverage did she have? Would you die instead of ratting out an ex? Its betrayal but you better believe that a large percentage of the world would make that choice in her shoes.

She clearly should have left King's Landing when Varys gave her the chance.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that Tyrion is finding out who really has his back. His brother and Varys. And to a lesser extent, Bronn.

 

[Dacks]

"Hell hath no wrath like a woman scorned."

I genuinely think Shae loved Tyrion. If she was purely self-interested, then a smart women like her would have seen the tide was turning on Tyrion and abandoned him much earlier. She stuck with him, at great risk to herself, and when it was clear he wasn't the betting favourite.

She only abandoned Tyrion once he verbally trashed her. Mind you, he trashed her out of love, to convince her to leave, but I guess either she didn't figure that out or was pissed off anyway. At that point, she wanted vengeance against him, and she did it the best way she knew how.

Also, some people online were saying Tyrion murdered Shae. Not really. He was looking for his dad, I don't think he expected to find Shae in there, and she attacked him first. All bets are off by that point.

 

[juliansteed]

that whole scene was pretty amazing.

question going back to season 3. When the Red Wedding occured, one of Robb Starks top commanders left just before the massacre to take a leak outside, did he die too? also did Robbs cousin who got married also die? I thought we would learn their fate this season.

So Jaimie and Cersai are in full control now? I dont think the hound will die, guy is too stubborn

Caitlyn's uncle Brynden Tully (a.k.a. The Blackfish) escaped the Red Wedding. In the Season 3 Finale we hear Roose Bolton advise Walder Frey of this.

Caitlyn's brother Edmure was last seen alive and the last we heard of him was during that same conversation when Walder Frey makes reference to him spending his wedding night in a dungeon. They don't intend for you to assume anything beyond that but keep in mind he is the Lord of Riverrun and therefore a valuable prisoner.

We haven't seen the Freys at all in season 4 other than the fat grand-daughter that Bolton married. The 2 surviving Tullys will likely resurface the next time we see Walder Frey.

 

[juliansteed]

I think the uncle died, as for the commander, I've wondered that as well. He's another question mark character.

- Benjen Stark still unaccounted for
- Osha/Rickon still unaccounted for
- Is Arya's direwolf from season 1 still unaccounted for? Does it matter?

Gendry is still unaccounted for as well, as are the Brotherhood Without Banners. Haven't seen or heard a thing from them this season but I imagine we will next season. Thought they might have popped up in the finale but I guess we won't be seeing them again until next season most likely. Gendry's TV storyline is a bit different than in the books, so I'm not really sure where they are going to go next with him. TV Gendry's storyline so far has been the combination of 2 book character's storyline's, his own and a bastard half-brother of another mother. Dragonstone is off the east coast of Westeros so it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up across the Narrow Sea as well.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sure but what leverage did she have? Would you die instead of ratting out an ex? Its betrayal but you better believe that a large percentage of the world would make that choice in her shoes.

She clearly should have left King's Landing when Varys gave her the chance.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that Tyrion is finding out who really has his back. His brother and Varys. And to a lesser extent, Bronn.

Sure, she was a peasant who had the screws put to her (pun fully intended) and she flipped. I guess I don't look favorably on her since she was an ignorant flake the whole season. Tyrion was clearly in a situation that he had no control over (his marriage to Sensa (sp?)) and she kept giving him shit for not gushing on her (again, pun fully intended). When it began to get REAL dangerous, he offered her a very comfortable life in a faraway land, and she decided to stay with the fantasy fairytale instead of seeing the situation for what it was. The end-game may have been out of her control, but she refused to see the 800 signs leading up to the outcome.

As for Tyrion's allies, I would certainly add Pod to that list. He was fully willing to die for him numerous times and was ordered to leave by Tyrion himself.

I would say his allies are in this order...

Pod (absolute devotion, but may not be able to help much outside of getting good rates from whores)
Jamie (more useful than Pod, but he is likely not willing to die for Tyrion)
.
.
.
Varys (they are playing to the same end, but I do not think Tyrion can trust him outside of that)
Bronn (a true friend who will let Tyrion know where he stands at all times)

 

[juliansteed]

Sure, she was a peasant who had the screws put to her (pun fully intended) and she flipped. I guess I don't look favorably on her since she was an ignorant flake the whole season. Tyrion was clearly in a situation that he had no control over (his marriage to Sensa (sp?)) and she kept giving him shit for not gushing on her (again, pun fully intended). When it began to get REAL dangerous, he offered her a very comfortable life in a faraway land, and she decided to stay with the fantasy fairytale instead of seeing the situation for what it was. The end-game may have been out of her control, but she refused to see the 800 signs leading up to the outcome.

As for Tyrion's allies, I would certainly add Pod to that list. He was fully willing to die for him numerous times and was ordered to leave by Tyrion himself.

I would say his allies are in this order...

Pod (absolute devotion, but may not be able to help much outside of getting good rates from whores)
Jamie (more useful than Pod, but he is likely not willing to die for Tyrion)
.
.
.
Varys (they are playing to the same end, but I do not think Tyrion can trust him outside of that)
Bronn (a true friend who will let Tyrion know where he stands at all times)

Yeah Varys may have helped freed him but I don't think he did it out of friendship or loyalty. Varys also told an imprisoned Ned Stark that he was 1 of his few remaining friends and said that he could release him from his dungeon but wouldn't. He always seems to have an agenda, much like Littlefinger. We just don't know what it is yet. He is from across the narrow sea and has allies over there. Remember back from season 1 when Arya saw him talking to a fat guy, who the viewers could see was the man who arranged Danaerys' wedding to Drogo and gave her the dragon's eggs.

It almost appeared he was ready to support Viserys' claim to the throne but then he also seemed to support King Robert's wish to have Danaerys and her unborn child assassinated, and might have even helped arrange the attempt, so it's hard to tell what he is upto. When he 1st seemed to support the idea of killing the Khaleesi, Drogo and Viserys, were still alive. Could it be that he realized how stupid of a plan that was on Robert's part as it would piss Drogo off would finally motivate him to cross the sea and help Viserys, but now with Viserys gone, he has jumped on the Danaerys bandwagon?

 

[mattola]

So the son who replaced Joffery as King, who is his father? Jaimie? Or Robert?

 

[juliansteed]

So the son who replaced Joffery as King, who is his father? Jaimie? Or Robert?

Jaime is definitely the father of Tommen and Myrcella as well as Joffrey. Notice that none of them are "black of hair". After Joffrey died, I kind of got the sense that Jaime actually wants to be a father to Tommen which he was not to Joffrey. He seemed genuinely concerned for Tommen's well being.

Cersei mentioned a couple of times in season 1, how they had another son that died who had black hair. He would have been the only true born son the couple had to go along with their soccer team of bastards.

 

[mattola]

thanks Julian

 

[Nasty_Magician]

How is it Robert had plenty of bastards, Cersei and Jaime had plenty of bastards yet Robert and Cersei didn't produce any children? Clearly they are both exceptional at reproducing.

 

[elocomotive]

"Hell hath no wrath like a woman scorned."

I genuinely think Shae loved Tyrion. If she was purely self-interested, then a smart women like her would have seen the tide was turning on Tyrion and abandoned him much earlier. She stuck with him, at great risk to herself, and when it was clear he wasn't the betting favourite.

She only abandoned Tyrion once he verbally trashed her. Mind you, he trashed her out of love, to convince her to leave, but I guess either she didn't figure that out or was pissed off anyway. At that point, she wanted vengeance against him, and she did it the best way she knew how.

Also, some people online were saying Tyrion murdered Shae. Not really. He was looking for his dad, I don't think he expected to find Shae in there, and she attacked him first. All bets are off by that point.

I totally agree with Dacks on this. Good observations. I don't think she was in Tywin's service the whole time, she was getting back at Tyrion for rejecting here. And like my ex-girlfriend, once the relationship was over, she reverted to being a whore again.

 

[elocomotive]

Cersei mentioned a couple of times in season 1, how they had another son that died who had black hair. He would have been the only true born son the couple had to go along with their soccer team of bastards.

Going to be confusing for the refs if everyone has "Snow" on the back of their jersey.

 

[RangersReds03]

Going to be confusing for the refs if everyone has "Snow" on the back of their jersey.

Snow is for northern bastards.

 

[juliansteed]

So the son who replaced Joffery as King, who is his father? Jaimie? Or Robert?

How is it Robert had plenty of bastards, Cersei and Jaime had plenty of bastards yet Robert and Cersei didn't produce any children? Clearly they are both exceptional at reproducing.

The answer to both of these questions can be found in this scene from about 1:10 to 1:25.

[YOUTUBE]ucB4UrhI-3w[/YOUTUBE]