OT: Joe Pa done

[Kinzu]

This is all moot. I doubt Paterno was worrying about slander and looked up the requirements- he either thought he did enough by telling the higher ups or he wanted to win with Sandusky, in which the reasons was far from civil liability. (I.E. you are not criminally held for slander, that's a civil ($$$) offense)

Win how? Sandusky had long been gone from his staff and was not even an employee of Penn State.

 

[NinerSickness]

THESE ASSHOLES COULD HAVE BEEN EVEN REPORTED THIS ANONYMOUSLY!!!!! They were concerned about the damn football team!

 

[SeattleNinersFan]

Yes! I am not authorized to give legal advice yet but being in law school has helped me understand some of these things that are bandied about. If anyone believes Pennsylvania has a different law, let me know with a citation/link.

Defamation (aka libel and slander) consists of the following:

(1) a defamatory statement;
(2) published to third parties; and
(3) which the speaker or publisher knew or should have known was false.

Key word: And. You can't get two out of three.

Defamatory statement - The law seems to focus on the result more than the intent. Sexual conduct has been deemed a serious enough allegation that it could be determined to be defamatory. Even if Paterno said I was told "xxxxx" but did not see it, it could still be defamatory but all elements must be met for a plaintiff to win. Again, you can't get two out of three.

Published - This, of course, has nothing to do with publishing like in a paper, but rather making the statement to a third party, which in the case of a paper, the newspaper company and the public who read it are the third party. Or in this case, to the police.

Falsity - Truth is an absolute defense with some exceptions. So if the allegations are true, Paterno could not be liable for slander unless a limited exception is met (along the lines of a blatant disregard of the likelihood of falsity) and even then, the recklessness may still not amount to a legal theory that survives in practice. (I.E. if the allegation were merely that Sandusky was naked in the shower when a boy happened to walk by and Paterno reported r*pe for no reason) Element #3 is the hardest to prove. Paterno did not know that what was reported to him did not happen, did not have reason to know that it did not happen, and obviously, the fact that he was told what the grad assistant saw did happen - so none of this is something that the falsity was an issue- even if Sandusky was innocent.

THEN!

With Sandusky possibly being a Public Figure under the definition of Pennsylvania law, there are stricter requirements to be met in order for him to prove slander. It's a bit of a double standard, but public figures have harder times arguing slander.



You can't just sue because your reputation isn't as good as it was before. There has to be some culpability of the person who made the statement to survive. It is true that harm is a factor - it is necessary but not sufficient - meaning that reputation has to be harmed to claim it but just because it was harmed does not make it an actionable offense. The fact that he cannot go home without a bodyguard would not make it actionable per se.

This is all moot. I doubt Paterno was worrying about slander and looked up the requirements- he either thought he did enough by telling the higher ups or he wanted to win with Sandusky, in which the reasons was far from civil liability. (I.E. you are not criminally held for slander, that's a civil ($$$) offense)

Excellent point on the falsity aspect, I knew that truth was the asbolute defense as you put it but my understanding is that even being reckless in your statements that caused harm could open you up for a civil lawsuit. That is some good information that I did not know. On a different note I think Sandusky was retired in 2002 when this report occurred.

 

[MHSL82]

Win how? Sandusky had long been gone from his staff and was not even an employee of Penn State.

Oops. I admit that I'm not familiar with Penn State or this case besides hearing it on the radio driving back from class. All I know is that Sandusky was said to have done this and there was a coverup. I assumed the cover up had to be to benefit Penn State. Then... why the coverup?

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

So... do you guys just never leave the 49ers forum?


Why don't you guys come out to the CFB forum or the General Discussion forum when you have an "OT" thread?


You guys are welcome any time.

Cool.







Well, like I said, you all welcome any time.

 

[MHSL82]

Excellent point on the falsity aspect, I knew that truth was the asbolute defense as you put it but my understanding is that even being reckless in your statements that caused harm could open you up for a civil lawsuit. That is some good information that I did not know. On a different note I think Sandusky was retired in 2002 when this report occurred.

I took the class two years ago and I remember talking about exceptions to the "truth being an absolute defense" but that might have been old law/precedence that has since been held invalid. I will need to brush up for the bar exam. Ugg. Recklessness can certainly open you up for a civil lawsuit, but I'm not sure if your reckless statements being true is a defense. If I had to bet, I'd say it is a defense. So if these allegations are true, I doubt Sandusky could sue saying "you recklessly reported (guessed) what I did!" Besides the statement he is making is "XXXX told me YYYY" not "AAAAA did BBBBB". That I believe we can agree is true (that Paterno was told by the grad assistant).

 

[SeattleNinersFan]

DAWG, I only follow the NFL and the NBA. I don't follow college football at all.

 

[sayheykid1]

I don't want to get into a huge thing about this, but he should be fired and punched in the face. I don't want to hear anything about he didn't know for sure or that he told someone about it.... nobody called the police or stopped it themselves. The dude was working out there 2 weeks ago!!! Everyone who knew about it and did nothing should be fired and punched in the face. I don't care how old they are, or if they are a woman...punch them in the face. This isn't like ratting out your buddy for cheating on a paper or something...this is molestation and r*pe. I don't care if it's my best friend.... if I witnessed this or knew about it he would get hit and I would call the police.

The guy who witnessed the act.... he left and called his dad!!! Ok, maybe he is in shock, but to not stop a grown man from sodomizing a 10 year old right in front of you?!?!? Let's say he is scared to do anything himself.... why not call the cops?? Why not yell something so he knows someone is there and he stops?? ANYTHING but run away.

As far as the Sandusky claiming to be innocent... he admitted to being naked in the shower with boys there and "hugging" them, back I think around the turn of the century. That's enough right there for me to believe he is 100% guilty.

To recap... everyone top to bottom who had any knowledge of this and did nothing has got to go. They should be sanctioned, as well. Talk about lack of institutional control.

I cannot rep this enough!

 

[sayheykid1]

I am not a Penn State fan and I really don't care one way or another about JoePa BUT there are other legal risks for him in this case. So you wanted him to go to police over hearsay? if he did that and Sandusky was innocent then JoePa would have been under legal risk from Sandusky for slander. Joe is not a protected job class, as a football coach, in these types of cases unlike teachers or senior school officials. His legal options were to tell the person who actually saw the the incident to go to the police or tell the senior school officials of what he heard. Everyone has said that he did at least one if not both of those.

Your anger should be focused on the grad student and the senior school officials who failed to go to the police instead of forming a lynch mob to go after a coach who had limited legal options.

No he would not

 

[sayheykid1]

1.) You can't be 100% certain based off only hearsay. 2.) Possibly Paterno could have been fed some lies about it being a cultural difference and that in Sandusky's family showering doesn't come with the same sexual overtone that it carries with the rest of us. 3.) You're being irrational

How about shower hugs?

 

[sayheykid1]

Sorry I missed this post. Feel free to question my moral compass, I really don't care. I see people forming a lynch mob for a guy who I view is a minor player in this case AND actually fulfilled his legal requirements and reported the case. Could he have done more, of course, but so could everyone in this case and to lay the blame for this at JoePa's feet is irresponsible.

Here are the facts that I am aware of in this case.

1) a student assistant sees a child r*pe, fails to stop it and instead goes to JoePa.
2) JoePa went to his leadership to report what he was told. by the way what I have heard is that the student was not specific with Joe in what he saw, only that Sandusky did something inappropriate to young boy.
3) What the student and the school officials did I have no idea but it was not enough. neither was what JoePa did and I think he should have followed up with school officials, at least asking if the issue had been reported to the police. Maybe he did, I don't know but since Sandusky was not on Joe's staff at the time of the report he would not have been priviledged to the outcome of any investigation. I really don't think that the police would tell Joe anything about an investigation that was ongoing, especially since Sandusky was a long time associate of his.


My biggest questions are if the grad student was so emotionally distraut over what he saw then why did he not go the police and why did he continued to work at a facility where he could see the same guy that he witnessed raping a child bring more kids to the school. What the FUCK! seriously WHAT THE FUCK!!

I am not sure about that at all and why the heck wouldn't Paterno ask the GA to tell him exactly what he saw?

 

[sayheykid1]

Joe Pa doesn't really seem all that sure what he said in that non-quote. The word fondling could have easily been horsing around or many other phrases to describe awkward physical contact.

You cannot be fucking serious.

In High School did you and your friends call it fondling when you horsed around?

Fondling and sexual contact are terms that don't conjure up any innocent thoughts especially in the context of being between a man and a child.

 

[sayheykid1]

It might be "ridiculous" but but that is the definition of hearsay and filing a report with the police that is untrue is slander.

Telling the police that a person told you they witnessed something is not slander it is the truth.

 

[Flyingiguana]

inappropriate and young boy is grounds for a 'leave of absense' until there's a thorough investigation. what a way to tarnish a great coaching career

 

[I_am_1z]

You cannot be fucking serious.

In High School did you and your friends call it fondling when you horsed around?

Fondling and sexual contact are terms that don't conjure up any innocent thoughts especially in the context of being between a man and a child.

A source told ESPN's Schad that Paterno hopes to clarify what he was told by McQueary as soon as Thursday. According to the source, Paterno recalls McQueary "vaguely" referencing "fondling" or "touching" or "horsing around" by Sandusky and a youth. But Paterno never had the understanding that McQueary had witnessed a "sodomy" or "r*pe."

Joe Paterno, president Graham Spanier out at Penn State - ESPN

 

[CalamityX11]

Paterno, I will miss seeing you on the sidelines... I will be one of the few who will remember the good and legacy you left behind at PSU rather than a crime that's been nailed to your name.

It's disappointing to me in which the whole thing is making Joe into the devil... I am not caring for and appreciating how everyone in media outlets and school boards just turned on him... turned on him for not doing enough, he's an easy target because his a high profile...

Do I think more should've been done? absolutely BUT I don't look at Paterno as someone who needs to be nailed to the fuckin cross. It's upsetting and disrespectful IMO..... He shouldn't be going out this way at all!

 

[Flyingiguana]

paterno makes it sound like a walk in the park he can hardly remember. anything to do with possible molestation is more like a wtf moment. when i was told about a girl i knew that just got gang raped i damn well remember everything about the moment i was told.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

A source told ESPN's Schad that Paterno hopes to clarify what he was told by McQueary as soon as Thursday. According to the source, Paterno recalls McQueary "vaguely" referencing "fondling" or "touching" or "horsing around" by Sandusky and a youth. But Paterno never had the understanding that McQueary had witnessed a "sodomy" or "r*pe."

Joe Paterno, president Graham Spanier out at Penn State - ESPN

I don't see how the distinction makes a significant difference. Ok, so a naked man was ONLY fondling or touching a naked boy in the showers of an otherwise abandoned facility. Like that wouldn't still be abuse?

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Yeah but that's assuming you know he was told a child was being anal raped in the shower. It all comes down to exactly how the Graduate Assistant presented what he saw and the indictment is vague in the details on that.

Even then it's easy to look back and say well I should've would've could've once you know the full details of a situation. Joe Paterno acted accordingly based on what we know he knew. I expect more to come out on this later

BULLSHIT..... you don't take chances on something like this. If you hear he is "horsing around" with a 10 year old in the shower you call the cops or at the very least go smack him upside the head and ask what the hell he is doing. If that's my good friend and he was innocently horsing around the showers naked with a 10 year old I would not ignore it, or passive aggressively tell the athletic director.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Paterno, I will miss seeing you on the sidelines... I will be one of the few who will remember the good and legacy you left behind at PSU rather than a crime that's been nailed to your name.

It's disappointing to me in which the whole thing is making Joe into the devil... I am not caring for and appreciating how everyone in media outlets and school boards just turned on him... turned on him for not doing enough, he's an easy target because his a high profile...

Do I think more should've been done? absolutely BUT I don't look at Paterno as someone who needs to be nailed to the fuckin cross. It's upsetting and disrespectful IMO..... He shouldn't be going out this way at all!

Calamity... he is an easy target because he is high profile... but that's the exact reason he should have done more!! If Joe Paterno steps forward people are gonna listen and take action. It is his DUTY to take action. Pete Carrol gets shit for claiming to not know about Reggie Bush's house 300 miles away from USC, and Tressel for not doing enough when he knew about his players trading jerseys and what not... but we should excuse Joe when not only was this happening right under his nose, but he was told about it!?!? At the very least he was told about it to a suspicious extent. Fuck Joe... his legacy should be diminished because of this. If you know about a crime and do nothing, that makes you an accomplice.