Offseason thread, WR hunt, Cap Space now $4.768M not counting JJ and Jacobs

[Crimsoncrew]

Wait, I forgot who I'm talking to - my apologies Mr. More Catches/More Yards

I retract my position and am now bewildered if not a little bit perturbed how Crabtree did not make the pro-bowl last year! (Didn't those voters know he had More Catches AND More Yards!! Oh the rarity of such event!)

Translation: "I don't have any evidence. Better rant and rave to distract from the fact."

Yes, we are all familiar with your M.O. Let me know when you come up with something new.

 

[Bemular]

I'll take this as you admitting that not even you know what your argument is at this point. If you and MW aren't the same person, you have the same educational background. Neither of you can answer questions or support an argument for shit.

I do find it incredibly amusing that this discussion largely began to degenerate when you accused me of moving the goal posts, as that is your only effective "argument."

Well Thank God it was effective!

 

[Bemular]

Translation: "I don't have any evidence. Better rant and rave to distract from the fact."

Yes, we are all familiar with your M.O. Let me know when you come up with something new.

So now your saying that someone who started out as a primary target that you now feel is more suited to be the 3rd target is the benchmark of how improvement is measured - okay good to know.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Well Thank God it was effective!

So what was your argument again? Not the distractions, but the actual substantive argument.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

So now your saying that someone who started out as a primary target that you now feel is more suited to be the 3rd target is the benchmark of how improvement is measured - okay good to know.

I haven't said anything on the topic. Still waiting for you to state your argument.

I can respond to your above post relatively quickly, and am happy to do so. Once you restate your argument.

 

[Bemular]

Translation: "I don't have any evidence. Better rant and rave to distract from the fact."

Yes, we are all familiar with your M.O. Let me know when you come up with something new.

Translation: My evidence is not nearly as incontrovertible as More Catches AND More Yards - There is nobody that can refute that - Nobody! Yet, despite this overwhelming evidence I still feel as if Crabtree isn't as impressive as he was during his rookie season -

 

[Bemular]

I haven't said anything on the topic. Still waiting for you to state your argument.

I can respond to your above post relatively quickly, and am happy to do so. Once you restate your argument.

There is no argument - I completely agree with you. Is it that translation thing again?

 

[Bemular]

So what was your argument again? Not the distractions, but the actual substantive argument.

Well, I think it was, ahh, wait for it...Oh, got it!











































I never had one, fool!

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I never had one, fool!

Ok. Great. We're back on the same page. I guess there's no sense in continuing this discussion in that case.

 

[Flyingiguana]

on to the subject of using our cap space. our primary targets should be guys like colston and lloyd. if we can grab only one, resign morgan. then maybe replace ginn with royal or resign ginn.

royal might be able to beat out crabtree and morgan. even lloyd, royal, morgan and crabtree would give us good depth. not a sexy crew, but they'll get the job done

 

[Bemular]

Ok. Great. We're back on the same page. I guess there's no sense in continuing this discussion in that case.

There hasn't been since I told you I obtained what I came for. Not the brightest kid on the block are ya?

 

[imac_21]

Here's a quick look at some wide receivers that have improved playing with Alex Smith (according to the statement that Crabtree is the only WR not to have improved with Smith)

Ted Ginn
Braylon Edwards
Isaac Bruce
Jason Hill
Arnaz Battle
Brandon Jones
Darrell Jackson
Ashley Lelie
Bryan Gilmore
Taylor Jacobs
Antonio Bryant
Johnnie Morton
Brandon Lloyd
Jason McAddley

Each of these guys saw significant improvement playing with Alex Smith.

 

[Bemular]

Here's a quick look at some wide receivers that have improved playing with Alex Smith (according to the statement that Crabtree is the only WR not to have improved with Smith)

Ted Ginn
Braylon Edwards
Isaac Bruce
Jason Hill
Arnaz Battle
Brandon Jones
Darrell Jackson
Ashley Lelie
Bryan Gilmore
Taylor Jacobs
Antonio Bryant
Johnnie Morton
Brandon Lloyd
Jason McAddley

Each of these guys saw significant improvement playing with Alex Smith.

You forgot Sopoaga & Staley - Now Smith did horribly with himself, so he goes on the other side of the equation. Also, the improvement was much, much more than just significant - it was more like heroic!

In fact, I think Smith has had something like 48 different receivers and, to my knowledge, only one has ever been mentioned as being held back by Smith.

Smith = Axis of evil!

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I just wanted to highlight something here - peacefully - In your above post you state: "I have no problem with Crabtree finding a role as the third guy (second WR in my scenario) in that context. Provided he does show some improvement this offseason."

Yet, Crabtree was drafted to be our #1 target and was our #1 target in 2010.

Can you explain to me how your statement defines improvement?

Since you have conceded that you don't have an argument, I will briefly respond to this marvel of poor reasoning.

First, what Crabtree was drafted to be has little to no bearing on what he is or has been, or how much he has improved. He was drafted to be an elite player. He never has been. He wasn't in 2009, and he isn't today. He doesn't have to be elite to have improved.

Second, Crabtree's ranking among our receivers is completely detached from his improvement. For instance, when he joined the team, he only needed to beat out Josh Morgan, a declining Isaac Bruce, and Jason Hill to become the #1 WR. Now let's say we added - hypothetically, of course - Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, and Greg Jennings. Suddenly, Crabtree is our #4 WR. He could make a huge jump in ability this offseason and he'd still be #4. His ranking among our hypothetical additions doesn't indicate that he is better or worse than he was. It means he's still not as good as those other guys.

Third, Crabtree was not our #1 target in 2009. He was our #1 WR. Davis was our clear #1 receiver, posting 965 yards and 13 TDs that season. Davis was also our primary receiver in 2010. Only this past year, largely due to Davis' early struggles grasping the offense, did Crabtree actually become our #1 receiver for the season as a whole (obviously this balance shifted dramatically late in the year and Davis reassumed his spot at the top).

 

[imac_21]

You forgot Sopoaga & Staley - Now Smith did horribly with himself, so he goes on the other side of the equation. Also, the improvement was much, much more than just significant - it was more like heroic!

In fact, I think Smith has had something like 48 different receivers and, to my knowledge, only one has ever been mentioned as being held back by Smith.

Smith = Axis of evil!

I said wide receivers, not guys who caught passes. I'm surprised someone as astute as you didn't pick up on that.

 

[Bemular]

Since you have conceded that you don't have an argument, I will briefly respond to this marvel of poor reasoning.

First, what Crabtree was drafted to be has little to no bearing on what he is or has been, or how much he has improved. He was drafted to be an elite player. He never has been. He wasn't in 2009, and he isn't today. He doesn't have to be elite to have improved.

Second, Crabtree's ranking among our receivers is completely detached from his improvement. For instance, when he joined the team, he only needed to beat out Josh Morgan, a declining Isaac Bruce, and Jason Hill to become the #1 WR. Now let's say we added - hypothetically, of course - Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, and Greg Jennings. Suddenly, Crabtree is our #4 WR. He could make a huge jump in ability this offseason and he'd still be #4. His ranking among our hypothetical additions doesn't indicate that he is better or worse than he was. It means he's still not as good as those other guys.

Third, Crabtree was not our #1 target in 2009. He was our #1 WR. Davis was our clear #1 receiver, posting 965 yards and 13 TDs that season. Davis was also our primary receiver in 2010. Only this past year, largely due to Davis' early struggles grasping the offense, did Crabtree actually become our #1 receiver for the season as a whole (obviously this balance shifted dramatically late in the year and Davis reassumed his spot at the top).

Just a couple questions:

What, if any, is the difference and how are you defining the difference between "Primary Target" and "Primary Receiver"?

Just for the sake of quantifying:
in 2009 Davis was targeted 8.2 Tar/Gm to Crabtree's 7.8 Tar/Gm and
in 2010 Crabtree was targeted 6.3 Tar/Gm to Davis' 5.8 Tar/Gm.

And then just for the sake of further clarifying this whole 'improved' consternation, are you saying that Crabtree started out below average and has now improved to being average? Or are you saying he started out as average and is now above average?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Just a couple questions:

What, if any, is the difference and how are you defining the difference between "Primary Target" and "Primary Receiver"?

I'm using the terms more or less synonymously, though I do not necessarily think "primary target" would imply that this person was thrown to more often.

Just for the sake of quantifying:
in 2009 Davis was targeted 8.2 Tar/Gm to Crabtree's 7.8 Tar/Gm and
in 2010 Crabtree was targeted 6.3 Tar/Gm to Davis' 5.8 Tar/Gm.
in 2011 Crabtree was targeted 8.0 Tar/Gm to Davis' 5.9 Tar/Gm. Crabtree assessed 14.5 games given injury.

Looks about right to me. Crabtree received slightly more targets in 2010, but I would contend he was not our primary receiver that season. I see that phrase as fairly subjective. I've added 2011 in there.

And then just for the sake of further clarifying this whole 'improved' consternation, are you saying that Crabtree started out below average and has now improved to being average? Or are you saying he started out as average and is now above average?

I'm not making any claims about where he stands generally. There's no basis for comparison. Average compared to what? An NFL receiver? A starting NFL receiver? A #1 NFL receiver?

I note you glossed over my second response point about his ranking relative to other WRs on or potentially on the team next season, btw. I'll assume that's a sign you're conceding that your post was ill-conceived on that point, but please let me know if I'm wrong and explain how or why your reasoning does apply.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Updating the cap space with the tag amount for Goldson.

 

[Bemular]

Just a couple questions:

What, if any, is the difference and how are you defining the difference between "Primary Target" and "Primary Receiver"?

I'm using the terms more or less synonymously, though I do not necessarily think "primary target" would imply that this person was thrown to more often.

Just for the sake of quantifying:
in 2009 Davis was targeted 8.2 Tar/Gm to Crabtree's 7.8 Tar/Gm and
in 2010 Crabtree was targeted 6.3 Tar/Gm to Davis' 5.8 Tar/Gm.
in 2011 Crabtree was targeted 8.0 Tar/Gm to Davis' 5.9 Tar/Gm. Crabtree assessed 14.5 games given injury.

Looks about right to me. Crabtree received slightly more targets in 2010, but I would contend he was not our primary receiver that season. I see that phrase as fairly subjective. I've added 2011 in there.

And then just for the sake of further clarifying this whole 'improved' consternation, are you saying that Crabtree started out below average and has now improved to being average? Or are you saying he started out as average and is now above average?

I'm not making any claims about where he stands generally. There's no basis for comparison. Average compared to what? An NFL receiver? A starting NFL receiver? A #1 NFL receiver?

I note you glossed over my second response point about his ranking relative to other WRs on or potentially on the team next season, btw. I'll assume that's a sign you're conceding that your post was ill-conceived on that point, but please let me know if I'm wrong and explain how or why your reasoning does apply.

Although MW has precise (net) target totals for our receivers - I don't, so I am forced to use just what espn publishes and I would tend to infer from those totals that the receiver with the most targets is both the primary target & primary receiver. It simplifies things and avoids an unprovable argument.

I would say whatever receiver on the team receives the most targets was the 'overall' primary target & receiver. Thus Crabtree & Davis shared being the primary target & receiver in both 2009 & 2010

Actually, the basis for the improvement comparison is built-in to the question. As for glossing over your hypothetical, I didn't gloss over it, I simply ignored it and not disrespectfully either but it was an essentially meaningless hypothetical. I could not care less about any other receivers because I am comparing Crabtree to himself.

 

[Flyingiguana]

You forgot Sopoaga & Staley - Now Smith did horribly with himself, so he goes on the other side of the equation. Also, the improvement was much, much more than just significant - it was more like heroic!

In fact, I think Smith has had something like 48 different receivers and, to my knowledge, only one has ever been mentioned as being held back by Smith.

Smith = Axis of evil!

yup smith is so good he even makes defensive and offensive linemen into pro recievers.

/sarcasm