Official Smackdown thread

[futballiscool]

Winning the King of the Ring was prestigious in and of itself. Bret, Owen, Kurt Angle, Edge, Brock Lesnar. It was also a part of failed pushes for Billy Gunn and Mabel but you can find world title reigns that failed to elevate people into stars too.

I don't think the issue with Ziggler is his booking. Finn lost his last few major matches in their Kayfabe minor league system NXT and nobody had an issue with him tearing through the RAW roster on his first night. Styles got booked in a 50/50 midcard feud with Jericho and then won the number 1 contenders match the night after WM in almost identical scenario as Ziggler last night.

I think the biggest issue with Ziggler is he's stale. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that a big time feud and match can jump start his career. I think he goes all out and gives Ambrose the match of his WWE career at SS. I think it elevates them both if it's done right like the AJ/Reigns matches (assuming nobody fails a drug test)

Again if he beat Lesnar or won the Rumble or something else equally ridiculous as part of a hotshot angle to build him up I'd be against it too. He won a train wreck match and pinned AJ Styles (who's lost clean to Jericho, Owens etc) to do it. It wasn't that out of kayfabe context

Also just for comparison's sake DZs the same age and has a very similar skillset as Balor. I'm all for giving them both the same chance.

 

[Hitman Hart]

1.) The 1996 KOTR was so prestigious, that the guy that won it the year before, had already been fired by the time the 1996 KOTR occured. The guys Austin beat in the 1996 KOTR included:

1996 Bob Holly, Savio Vega, Marc Mero and 1996 Jake Roberts. Sorry, but those wins aren't elevating anyone. The entertainment factor of his promo after winning it is what gave him momentum. Not the KOTR itself.


2.) I'm not sure how many people actually watch NXT, but I will say this: The sell job Michael Cole gave him was the most important part. He put over his NJPW accomplishments, as well as calling him the face of NXT for the past year or two. Finn Balor's win not only did wonders for himself, but also did wonders for the entire NXT brand. That was a lot of fans' first time seeing Balor, and they presented him as a force to be reckoned with. Comparing Balor's last month in NXT to Ziggler's past six months is once again..apples to orangles. A lot more people are aware of Ziggler's staleness than they are aware of whatever l's Balor took in NXT during his last month. I don't watch NXT, so I'm included in that group.

3.) Zigger is stale, but his booking also sucks. Its both. Fans aren't going to buy someone who constantly is made out to look like a nerd. That is poor booking. He's spent the last year, basically living in pre-show hell or jobbing to guys like Tyler Breeze and Baron Corbin on PPV. If you don't think that is poor booking, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Now all of a sudden, he is competing for the World Title at Summerslam? Please. Try to sell someone else that story, because I'm not buying it.

4.) Have no problem with Ziggler's age. Have a problem with his lack of character development, as well as his poor booking.

 

[futballiscool]

HH. I'm not quoting your posts because ours together would create a huge, unreadable wall of text .

I respect your knowledge of that era but we'll have to agree to disagree if you didn't consider winning TKOR a big sign of a push and a big jump in status and prestige for the winner.

Mabel may have been out of the WWF the next year but his KOTR included a singles win against Undertaker. He's the text book definition of the guy Vince would over push to have a big man at the top of the card and I have little doubt that was the plan for Mabel regardless of what happened the next year.

Also Austin tournament sucked because WCW had poached all of the top talent and Hart was on sabbatical. It's generally considered the nadir of WWFs quality and popularly. I'd argue SCSAs win and push up the card is what shifted the momentum the next year.

As far as Ziggler he's a guy that got lost in the shuffle but whenever he gets a big stage or moment he excellent. He had so much momentum after survivor series 14 but the company had do much energy focused on pushing the Shield they never capitalized on it. Even as recently as a few months ago he put on a great match with HHH. It showed to me that when Ziggler is booked in a big spot he can still rise to the occasion.

To sum it up...They needed to make a star from the midcard roster. Ziggler's over, he's a top notch worker... He was the right pick imo

 

[Hitman Hart]

I just don't think there was anything prestigeous about 1996 WWF. That product was absolute shit and they were getting their ass kicked every week by a superior product. Austin's weak path to the KOTR that year is just proof of this, IMO.

My point is that the previous year's KOTR winner was total shit, and if it wasn't for that legendary promo, Austin's KOTR win doesn't mean much.

Mabel may have gotten the W over Undertaker, but its takes a combination of strong booking and getting over with the fans. No one cared about Mabel, despite the strong booking. The decrease in viewership and a poor KOTR winner in 1995, decreased the prestige of the KOTR in 1996.

I think Austin winning it in 1996 was a sign that there was a push coming, no doubt. I don't disagree with that. That decision is coming from the office. I'm talking about the perception of the fans. I don't think that KOTR means anything, if it wasn't for the legendary promo that came with it. When Billy Gunn won the KOTR in 1999, the fans didn't buy it, because they already knew who Billy Gunn was. A tag specialist, who was shitty in singles. As "The Pope" D'Angelo Dinero once said, you can try to dress up a piece of crap with jewelry and fancy clothes, but at the end of the day, he's still a piece of crap. and no, I don't think Billy Gunn was a piece of crap, but we all knew what he was in 1999, and that wasn't a guy who should have been working a singles program with the Rock. I doubt the 1996 KOTR changes anything for the Ringmaster, if it wasn't for one of the most epic promos of all-time.

and yes, the WWF's talent pool was weakened by "poaching", but that doesn't change the point though. It may be unfair, but its the truth. Austin had a weak path to the KOTR crown that year, and the fans knew it. That is why they weren't watching.

I have never discredited Ziggler's talent. I think he is very talented, and has been very over at certain times of his career. My criticism is on the creative team, for doing nothing with him. Ziggler would have much better off with the WWE slowly building him back up. Now, they have hot shotted him into the #2 PPV of the year, after struggling with guys like Corbin and Breeze.

Like you said though, we can just agree to disagree. That is fine. There is a reason that professional wrestling has as many different styles that it does. Different folks like different things. Just wanted to clear up some of my points.

 

[Duffman]

Dolph was the best option to put against Ambrose at this point and have it be believable that he could win. He's still over with the fans and they buy him as the guy who's been held down before but now he's getting his shot.

You can't do a new guy like Corbin or Crews because that would be hot shot unbelievable booking and you can't do a guy like Cena or AJ Styles because they're still in a feud with each other and in the case of Cena that would completely go against their new fresh concept. You can't talk about a new fresh era in WWE and have John Cena fight for the title the first show.

The only other people you could've done was Del Rio and Bray Wyatt but the same reason you have against Dolph you would have to have against them as well. They haven't been built up enough yet.

Dolph Ziggler was obvious and smart choice to face Dean at SummerSlam.

 

[Hitman Hart]

Disagree. Corbin and Crews would have been terrible choices. AJ and Cena are working a program together, so it could not have been them.

The fact that Dolph (or Wyatt) made the most sense just buys into the theory that the booking and imagination of the creative team has been severely lacking for the past few months.

Wyatt would have made more sense, even though, he still would not have been perfect.

Punking the New Day > Getting punked by Baron Corbin.

Wyatt at least had a little momentum going into Smackdown. Ziggler had ZERO. That is where it comes down to for me.

I do acknowledge that this the beginning of the brand system, and shit like this is going to happen at the beginning. The WWE is basically pressing the reset button. Two different rosters = more opportunities. Guys that looked liked chumps before, aren't going to look like chumps anymore, because the roster isn't as crowded as it was before. Doesn't mean I'm going to let the WWE off the hook for their lack of imagination for the past few months.

 

[futballiscool]

The WWF talent pool in 1996 was in a strange situation because of all the defections to WCW. It's also worth noting as it's part of Attitude era folklore at this point.. HHH was supposed to win that KOTR but that planned push was canceled when a couple months earlier he came out with the rest of the Kliq for the curtain call. Austin getting that shot was due to not only a thin roster but someone making a mistake in terms of backstage politics. It had not been built up at all in the prior months of booking

Now they have strange situation with the talent pool because of the brand split. Roman screwed up with a failed drug test that probably caused them to shuffle the deck on a couple month notice for SummerSlam. Saying Ziggler is no Austin is an understatement. Austin's in the discussion with the biggest stars of alltime. The parallels end there. But it's the cliche where he's getting the chance to run with the ball. Austin with the 3:16 promo is a guy getting a chance and then taking full advantage of it. I don't think Ziggler's going to have the most iconic moment in wrestling history at SummerSlam but if he and Ambrose tear the house down and the SD promos before the match deliver he can find himself back in the upper midcard/mainevent mix. AJ had little to no chance of beating Reigns at those PPVs earlier this year but both of his performances were so off the charts great that he solidfied himself as a top tier guy. Ziggler gets that chance now. I'm all for it.

Just as an aside, they were realy, really bullish on Billy Gunn. It's what happened with Roman and what will inevitably happen with Cass. He was part of an over act and since he had an ideal WWF look they wanted to push him to the moon. That's why he won KOTR. Supposedly he was going to feud with Austin as the guy who ran him over with the car but Austin nixed as he didn't want to put him over. At least that's what I read somewhere years ago and I choose to believe it

 

[wildturkey]

The fact that the discussion on here boils down to either Wyatt or Ziggler being the best choices to win that match shows why the SD draft was the weaker from the start. At least from the perspective of telling the narrative their trying to tell of fresh match ups. That's why they should have had a guy like Owens or Zayn on SD. Either of them win the match and every thing fits perfectly. But of what they have, I would have gone with Wyatt or AJ. They have more going for them. You're going to have to invest a lot in Ziggler for this to mean anything with him because he's been so damaged like I said. He's had the exact same character for YEARS and has done nothing but lose big matches for YEARS. It's not his fault, WWE just badly misused him. They made him a glorified jobber to everyone on the main event scene. He needs to be treated a top guy for months and months for this to mean anything. Right now I feel like WWE is just trying to sucker us by giving him a shot to appease fans in the short term, just throwing us a bone knowing they have no plans for him long term.

 

[Duffman]

The fact that the discussion on here boils down to either Wyatt or Ziggler being the best choices to win that match shows why the SD draft was the weaker from the start. At least from the perspective of telling the narrative their trying to tell of fresh match ups. That's why they should have had a guy like Owens or Zayn on SD. Either of them win the match and every thing fits perfectly. But of what they have, I would have gone with Wyatt or AJ. They have more going for them. You're going to have to invest a lot in Ziggler for this to mean anything with him because he's been so damaged like I said. He's had the exact same character for YEARS and has done nothing but lose big matches for YEARS. It's not his fault, WWE just badly misused him. They made him a glorified jobber to everyone on the main event scene. He needs to be treated a top guy for months and months for this to mean anything. Right now I feel like WWE is just trying to sucker us by giving him a shot to appease fans in the short term, just throwing us a bone knowing they have no plans for him long term.

Which is fine, he's 36 years old and been in WWE since 2004. He should be used as the veteran who has good matches with the younger guys and puts them over. Ziggler is like SD's version of the Dudleyz, they know what role he serves and that's how they're going to use him.

WWE is bringing back people like Rhyno, Shelton Benjamin, Curt Hawkins, etc and their roles are just like Ziggler's. Work with the fresh talent and make them look good. And right now they're using Ziggler to make Ambrose look good, which is the perfect role to use him in.

 

[wildturkey]

Which is fine, he's 36 years old and been in WWE since 2004. He should be used as the veteran who has good matches with the younger guys and puts them over. Ziggler is like SD's version of the Dudleyz, they know what role he serves and that's how they're going to use him.

WWE is bringing back people like Rhyno, Shelton Benjamin, Curt Hawkins, etc and their roles are just like Ziggler's. Work with the fresh talent and make them look good. And right now they're using Ziggler to make Ambrose look good, which is the perfect role to use him in.

That's not what they are conveying though. They are telling a story that he's been overlooked and SD is going to give him the opportunity to "break through the glass ceiling" (which JBL wouldn't shut up about). That's a tough story to tell for a guy that's been used the way he has imo, at least in the short amount of time they have which is basically 3 to 4 weeks.

 

[Duffman]

That's not what they are conveying though. They are telling a story that he's been overlooked and SD is going to give him the opportunity to "break through the glass ceiling" (which JBL wouldn't shut up about). That's a tough story to tell for a guy that's been used the way he has imo, at least in the short amount of time they have which is basically 3 to 4 weeks.

Well we all know what they tell us on tv and what they're actually doing are 2 different things. I don't know of anybody whose character is that they are just here to put people over. The whole thing on SD was Ziggler saying he was never given a chance to show what he could do because he was always been overlooked or screwed over so all he wanted was a chance, and he got that chance. And when he loses to Dean at SS he can go from being a low card guy who is just there to a mid-level/uppercard guy on SD who's at least always in the mix. He's never going to be a top of the card guy but WWE isn't trying to present him that way.

Sure they're giving him a shot at the WWE title but they give people like Kane, Big Show, etc shots at the top but they were never top card guys.

With the talent they have SD is more of the "we have a lot of great pieces we just have to figure out how to manage them" type of brand where you don't necessarily have that on Raw outside of Cesaro and maybe Sheamus. Even people like Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens who haven't been booked the best are still working their way up the ladder and haven't had the rug pulled out from under them yet like a lot of the SD guys have.

 

[futballiscool]

The fact that the discussion on here boils down to either Wyatt or Ziggler being the best choices to win that match shows why the SD draft was the weaker from the start. At least from the perspective of telling the narrative their trying to tell of fresh match ups. That's why they should have had a guy like Owens or Zayn on SD. Either of them win the match and every thing fits perfectly. But of what they have, I would have gone with Wyatt or AJ. They have more going for them. You're going to have to invest a lot in Ziggler for this to mean anything with him because he's been so damaged like I said. He's had the exact same character for YEARS and has done nothing but lose big matches for YEARS. It's not his fault, WWE just badly misused him. They made him a glorified jobber to everyone on the main event scene. He needs to be treated a top guy for months and months for this to mean anything. Right now I feel like WWE is just trying to sucker us by giving him a shot to appease fans in the short term, just throwing us a bone knowing they have no plans for him long term.

This probably shows why I hold the Smackdown roster in higher regard than most people.

I don't perceive Ziggler as a midcarder for life. He's not damaged to me. As the storyline is emphasizing I have always seen him as a great talent who wasn't given a chance. That's what I LIKE about the concept of a brand split. That's what enabled a guy like Eddie Gurrero to go from a super talented mid carder to a legendary main eventer at the exact same age and stage of his career Ziggler is at now.

This isn't a Zack Ryder novelty mini-push. Ziggler is a former world champion. You can tell a story where a new brand and change of scenery allowed him to find his form again. In football, guys like Brandon Marshall with the Jets or Kurt Warner with the Cardinals or Steve Young can find new life with a new team. It's not ridiculous idea to me even if you equate wrestling with sports realism.

I am happy to see Ziggler get his push. I think he's just as talented and deserving as Zayn or Owens or Balor.
It didn't need to be a long process. Super kicking Styles when he turned his back in a 6 match works for me. I am legitimately excited to see the program with Ambrose and the match at SS.

About the idea that Ziggler is one and done for a title shot. Maybe he goes back to the mid card after the match, but both brands need stars. That's why Balor and Ziggler were shot to the top. I think they want both guys succeed. They need roster depth desperatley. This isn't a "you're a placeholder until we forgive Roman" that it might have been without the brandsplit

Hopefully this isn't misinterpreted as me trying to sell people on SD. If people take offense to Ziggler in main event type match and don't want to invest in the brand that's fine. I am just explaining why it works for me

 

[RobToxin]

Just a reminder as the 1996 King of the Ring is being remembered....

the original plan was for Triple H to win it, but because of The Curtain Call, that was yanked from him and then given to Austin.

 

[futballiscool]

Just a reminder as the 1996 King of the Ring is being remembered....

the original plan was for Triple H to win it, but because of The Curtain Call, that was yanked from him and then given to Austin.

I covered that in post 47 : )
I am working on a novel in this thread so I don't blame anyone who's stopped reading them

 

[RobToxin]

My entire reason for supporting this decision is that it makes Smackdown a bit unpredictable.

Like the time when Ziggler came out and confronted Stephanie and so she put him in a match with Triple H.

Everyone already knew Dolph was going to lose that match. There was no point in watching.

With Ziggler winning the 6-pack challenge, Smackdown is saying "don't think you know because you don't. When we have a main event, anyone can win it."

 

[futballiscool]

American Alpha debuts next week. I'm a casual NXT fan. I mostly watch just the takeover specials and an occasional episode...

I really think these guys are the best prospects in the WWE right now. As great as Balor, Nakamura and Joe are they're all in their mid-late 30s with a ton of miles on them.

I'm going to sound like JBL talking up Orton when I go on about Jason Jordan but to me he's the "build a star from the ground up" prototype. 27, ridiculously good in the ring with upside to get even better, and he's built like a young John Cena. He checks every box.
Gabel's not Marty Jenneaty either. He's a future star too. Just a bit older and less of the WWEs ideal body type but an amazing in ring talent

Just some hype for people looking for new stars on SD but don't watch NXT. These guys are both legit

 

[futballiscool]

More On Alberto Del Rio's WWE Status, Does He Have an Out Clause in His Contract?

 

[futballiscool]

Great opening segment...

 

[Hitman Hart]

Looks like the WWE was paying attention and agreeing with my posts last week.

 

[Hitman Hart]

My entire reason for supporting this decision is that it makes Smackdown a bit unpredictable.

Like the time when Ziggler came out and confronted Stephanie and so she put him in a match with Triple H.

Everyone already knew Dolph was going to lose that match. There was no point in watching.

With Ziggler winning the 6-pack challenge, Smackdown is saying "don't think you know because you don't. When we have a main event, anyone can win it."

Unpredictably is good. Having guys that have legitimacy to make the unpredictably draw in people would be even better.